Ret Paladins

Every post or every other post is about the Retribution tree for Paladins. So what is it about Rets that is beyond broken?

Is it the fact that Ret doesn't perform DPS-wise? Note that you were never supposed to perform up to the Rogues in Vanilla WoW.

Is it that you don't want to put on the dress? Neither do I, but I also know going Ret is "raider suicide" unless you're a Nightfall swinger.

Personally, I'm in the "As Vanilla as Orcishly possible" camp, but I want to hear it. What is so fundamentally broken with Ret Paladins in Vanilla that it apparently demands a takeover on every topic?
I haven't played this Paladin in years, as you can see. But in vanilla, he achieved the highest rank in PvP of Grand Marshall, Rank 14.

The only reason I did it was because I was constantly told it couldn't be done as a Ret. So I slaved away at it, day after day, and eventually got the title. But I must say, it was a very frustrating adventure.

Ret never gets invited to raids, so the only good gear we could get was from PvP. But in PvP, our damage was so poor that we needed help killing anyone else. For example, trying to kill a Mage was like pulling your own teeth. A priest was virtually impossible. Same with locks, or any caster class. Fighting a druid could take 15 minutes.

The class was so ridiculously weak in PvP that the only reason I went to Rank 14 in PvP was to spite all the naysayers. But at the end of the day, the naysayers were right. The class completely sucked, and everyone believed that Blizzard made it suck on purpose because so many people were originally playing it, causing class imbalance.

If they keep it the same in the new Classic WoW, I advise everyone to run from this class.
04/25/2018 07:58 AMPosted by Fath
I haven't played this Paladin in years, as you can see. But in vanilla, he achieved the highest rank in PvP of Grand Marshall, Rank 14.

The only reason I did it was because I was constantly told it couldn't be done as a Ret. So I slaved away at it, day after day, and eventually got the title. But I must say, it was a very frustrating adventure.

Ret never gets invited to raids, so the only good gear we could get was from PvP. But in PvP, our damage was so poor that we needed help killing anyone else. For example, trying to kill a Mage was like pulling your own teeth. A priest was virtually impossible. Same with locks, or any caster class. Fighting a druid could take 15 minutes.

The class was so ridiculously weak in PvP that the only reason I went to Rank 14 in PvP was to spite all the naysayers. But at the end of the day, the naysayers were right. The class completely sucked, and everyone believed that Blizzard made it suck on purpose because so many people were originally playing it, causing class imbalance.

If they keep it the same in the new Classic WoW, I advise everyone to run from this class.


They are a hybrid support class. It sounds like they made a perfect combo with a pure class........ imagine that.

Honestly if RET needs more dps, why wouldn't warriors get more healing??? It's not a joke and its a valid question. The answer is simply each class is different and thats what purists want to play again. If you want more dps, you sacrifice the ability to heal, buff and bubble and roll a warrior. If you want to dps with plate armor you sacrifice stealth and choosing your battles and engagements like a rogue has. If you want to control your enemys and have hard escape abilities you roll a mage. The list goes on and on........ But each class was unique.

Changing that literally ruins the game. Asking for changes is asking for a chance to start the ENTIRE F the game up all over again and is not what the project is about.
04/25/2018 08:07 AMPosted by Bigsly1DD123
04/25/2018 07:58 AMPosted by Fath
I haven't played this Paladin in years, as you can see. But in vanilla, he achieved the highest rank in PvP of Grand Marshall, Rank 14.

The only reason I did it was because I was constantly told it couldn't be done as a Ret. So I slaved away at it, day after day, and eventually got the title. But I must say, it was a very frustrating adventure.

Ret never gets invited to raids, so the only good gear we could get was from PvP. But in PvP, our damage was so poor that we needed help killing anyone else. For example, trying to kill a Mage was like pulling your own teeth. A priest was virtually impossible. Same with locks, or any caster class. Fighting a druid could take 15 minutes.

The class was so ridiculously weak in PvP that the only reason I went to Rank 14 in PvP was to spite all the naysayers. But at the end of the day, the naysayers were right. The class completely sucked, and everyone believed that Blizzard made it suck on purpose because so many people were originally playing it, causing class imbalance.

If they keep it the same in the new Classic WoW, I advise everyone to run from this class.


They are a hybrid support class. It sounds like they made a perfect combo with a pure class........ imagine that.

Honestly if RET needs more dps, why wouldn't warriors get more healing??? It's not a joke and its a valid question. The answer is simply each class is different and thats what purists want to play again. If you want more dps, you sacrifice the ability to heal, buff and bubble and roll a warrior. If you want to dps with plate armor you sacrifice stealth and choosing your battles and engagements like a rogue has. If you want to control your enemys and have hard escape abilities you roll a mage. The list goes on and on........ But each class was unique.

Changing that literally ruins the game. Asking for changes is asking for a chance to start the ENTIRE F the game up all over again and is not what the project is about.


DPS was indeed a problem for Paladins, but the reason for the low DPS was not so much as the DPS itself, but the ability to deliver the DPS.

Yes the DPS was lower than other classes, and Blizzard thought that by giving the Paladin Divine Shield and Blessing of Freedom that it would offset the low DPS. But the problem was all the other CC that always managed to keep the Paladin at a distance or incapacitated. What this CC did was force the Paladin to use his only defensive ability, Divine Shield, to heal himself, and with that being on a 5 minute cool-down, the Paladin was completely defenseless.

Mages, for example, could blink out of stuns, and get out of Repentance with their ice shield. They could poly the paladain, and sit down and eat and drink to full health and mana.

All a priest had to do was fear and drain mana. Paladin had no chance. The same for all casters and hunters. Just drain the mana while stunned or feared and the Paladin was done.

When you couple the Paladin's low DPS with all the casters' abilities to CC which also easily caused the Paladin to blow their cool-downs, then right there was precisely the problem with Paladins in PvP.

The warrior was a different issue. They had awesome DPS when well geared and well played, but when alone they had no good ability to generate health. Either they killed their opponent quickly, or they died.

However, a warrior with a paladin in tow was a fearsome thing to confront, even if the Paladin was Ret. He could still heal very well as Ret, and could both heal the warrior and assist with the DPS.
I haven't played this Paladin in years, as you can see. But in vanilla, he achieved the highest rank in PvP of Grand Marshall, Rank 14.

The only reason I did it was because I was constantly told it couldn't be done as a Ret. So I slaved away at it, day after day, and eventually got the title. But I must say, it was a very frustrating adventure.

Ret never gets invited to raids, so the only good gear we could get was from PvP. But in PvP, our damage was so poor that we needed help killing anyone else. For example, trying to kill a Mage was like pulling your own teeth. A priest was virtually impossible. Same with locks, or any caster class. Fighting a druid could take 15 minutes.

The class was so ridiculously weak in PvP that the only reason I went to Rank 14 in PvP was to spite all the naysayers. But at the end of the day, the naysayers were right. The class completely sucked, and everyone believed that Blizzard made it suck on purpose because so many people were originally playing it, causing class imbalance.

If they keep it the same in the new Classic WoW, I advise everyone to run from this class.


Gee...I wonder what would happen if we removed the tax from paladins.
problems with ret include
1. not a single offensive skill to activate for damage. (mortal strike would be an example)
2.is considered the PvP spec without the main ability of PvP (reckoning)
3. many overall useless talents for raiding (eye for an eye, vindication, ect)
4. no AoE except on undead (maybe demons it's been a while)
5. No utility UNIQUE to them. probably most important if they are going to maintain lower dps then pure classes. hell you can argue rogues, mages, hunters, warlocks, all have more utility then a ret.

hell they could give ret the shadow priest treatment that there should only be 1 in a raid set up by changing vengeance so it causes a debuff that increases physical and magical damage on target by 1/2/3/4/5%. suddenly there would be a token ret paladin in every raid.
if a class has alot of defense, then their offense shouldn't be so high
but there are ways to change them to be worthwhile in raids(they weren't outside of naxx and the blasted lands) without increasing their personal dps or breaking them in PvP
04/25/2018 08:54 AMPosted by Tarregor
if a class has alot of defense, then their offense shouldn't be so high
but there are ways to change them to be worthwhile in raids(they weren't outside of naxx and the blasted lands) without increasing their personal dps or breaking them in PvP


That's just it, the Paladin did not have a lot of defense. People mistakenly believed that since they had a 12 second total protection spell, Divine Shield, that the Paladin was over-powered.

However, for the next 4:48 the Paladin had absolutely no defense whatsoever from casters. And the only reason Divine Shield was used was so the paladin could heal himself uninterrupted ... while his opponent simply moved out of melee range and took down the Paladin easily after Divine Shield was on cool-down.

And while Paladin healed himself, his opponent did likewise with bandages, healing spells, health-stones, etc, so that now his opponent had full health also, while the Paladin had absolutely no defenses for the next 4:48.

Thus, you simply CC the Paladin and kill him, easy as pie.
04/25/2018 09:24 AMPosted by Fath
That's just it, the Paladin did not have a lot of defense. People mistakenly believed that since they had a 12 second total protection spell, Divine Shield, that the Paladin was over-powered.


Wears plate, has an unbreakable shield spell, is the ultimate utility in a raid situation, does major damage in pvp. How is that not OP?

04/25/2018 07:58 AMPosted by Fath
The class was so ridiculously weak in PvP that the only reason I went to Rank 14 in PvP was to spite all the naysayers. But at the end of the day, the naysayers were right. The class completely sucked, and everyone believed that Blizzard made it suck on purpose because so many people were originally playing it, causing class imbalance.


It wasn't the class that sucked, it was the immense number of players who didn't know how to play the class. Rets do fine damage in pvp, they are just bursty. I'll believe your claim to r14 as soon as you post on a character that can be peeped on the armory.
04/25/2018 09:24 AMPosted by Fath
That's just it, the Paladin did not have a lot of defense. People mistakenly believed that since they had a 12 second total protection spell, Divine Shield, that the Paladin was over-powered.


Wears plate, has an unbreakable shield spell, is the ultimate utility in a raid situation, does major damage in pvp. How is that not OP?


In vanilla, plate is useless against casters. Means absolutely nothing. In Vanilla, damage was lowest of all classes. In Vanilla, kicked out of raids due to virtually no utility.

Did you not play vanilla wow?

The class was so ridiculously weak in PvP that the only reason I went to Rank 14 in PvP was to spite all the naysayers. But at the end of the day, the naysayers were right. The class completely sucked, and everyone believed that Blizzard made it suck on purpose because so many people were originally playing it, causing class imbalance.


It wasn't the class that sucked, it was the immense number of players who didn't know how to play the class. Rets do fine damage in pvp, they are just bursty. I'll believe your claim to r14 as soon as you post on a character that can be peeped on the armory.


This is the character. Fath - Dethecus.
04/25/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Fath
In vanilla, plate is useless against casters. Means absolutely nothing. In Vanilla, damage was lowest of all classes. In Vanilla, kicked out of raids due to virtually no utility.

Did you not play vanilla wow?


Plate to deal with physical damage... Obvious... Hand of freedom to help deal with mages... HoJ to lock down players.... They weren't the crap class you claim them to be at least in terms of pvp. You can check my achievements, I played from 05 on. You on the other hand I can't say whether or not you actually played or are just pulling info out of your !@#; as we can't even armory your character.

If you don't recognize that the majority of players sucked during Vanilla and had mostly no idea what they were doing then I would question whether or not you have any true Vanilla experience at all.
I feel like Ret was underdeveloped in vanilla. The class was a buff class but rather than giving them talent-orientated buffs to apply, they just got static buffs applied to players.

I think Ret could have been made stronger and more effective in a few ways:

-Change how their vengeance talent worked so it gave a 5% baseline damage buff and 10% party-wide damage buff when it triggered from a crit; This is what I mean by "talent-orientated" buffs, it helps the Ret but also helps their allies.

-Allow Ret to have tools to solve common raid problems: change Sanctity Aura to cause all crits to register as holy damage and to have holy damage crits generate no extra threat. This would allow ret to be more crit focused without pulling aggro, and would also help other classes like Mages and Warriors.

-Give them a filler ability to cast other than judgement. I'd suggest Crusader Strike, which was actually in beta so its not like we'd be breaking the "time machine", and change Crusader strike to have unique interactions based on your seal active. Crusader Strike itself would be available at level 20 and have ranks the reduce the cooldown (30s, 20s, 10s, 5s) and increase the mana cost and the final rank adding a spell damage ratio to it. Crusader Strike by default would deal 30% weapon damage as holy damage that would change depending on if and which seal you would have active. Examples: Seal of Command- strike for 100% weapon damage as holy damage with double your melee critical strike chance (SoC's crit chance + Crusader Strike's crit chance), Seal of Light - Heal yourself and nearby allies within 12 yards for 30% of your weapon damage, Seal of Wisdom- Refund the mana cost of Crusader Strike and also Trigger the seal.

-Add talents that buff damage but nerf healing: Perhaps a talent that boosts your weapon damage dealt based on the speed of your weapon, but also nerf your healing either by upping the cost or reducing it's effectiveness. Preserve the whole hybrid tax by saying "you want to deal more damage? well then your healing needs be nerfed".

All these ideas are pure speculation and consideration, vanilla already happened and as much as I'd love to see these changes occur, I'm not holding my breath; between the "classic fanatics" who want no changes and the fact the its unlikely that Blizz will do anything about vanilla especially at this point.
04/25/2018 08:07 AMPosted by Bigsly1DD123
Honestly if RET needs more dps, why wouldn't warriors get more healing??? It's not a joke and its a valid question.


Because Warriors don't have a healing Talent Tree. They have a Tank, Raid DPS, and a PvP tree, and all work well.

Paladins have a Healing tree that works well, and two trees that don't (Tank and DPS).

It wouldn't be hard to fix those two trees. It wouldn't unbalance the game. It wouldn't destroy the good things about Vanilla (unless you're a masochist that likes being told you can't raid as Ret because your damage output isn't high enough).
mana.....
04/25/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Aevelamue
mana.....


read my post, and yes I understand. Going OOM is definitely a limiter. Though honestly something similar could be said warlocks going OOH because of lifetap and raid healing :P
How about this: If you're OK with bugfixes for WoW Classic, then Retadins not doing good DPS is a bug. Fix it.

/thread
04/25/2018 12:25 PMPosted by Arius
How about this: If you're OK with bugfixes for WoW Classic, then Retadins not doing good DPS is a bug. Fix it.

/thread


Except it wasn't a bug, it was completely intentional...
04/25/2018 12:25 PMPosted by Arius
How about this: If you're OK with bugfixes for WoW Classic, then Retadins not doing good DPS is a bug. Fix it.


yea.....No. They were working as intended. As I've told you many times before... HYBRID TAX exists for a reason. Sorry but not sorry, if you want to dps pick a pure dps class.
04/25/2018 01:40 PMPosted by Partypooper

yea.....No. They were working as intended. As I've told you many times before... HYBRID TAX exists for a reason. Sorry but not sorry, if you want to dps pick a pure dps class.


Working as intended? Meaning they were supposed to be bad at PvP and not do much DPS in raids? Why would Blizzard make a spec that isn't good on purpose? I highly suspect you don't know what you're talking about.

::I was there 3000 years ago meme::

Pallys only had 1 viable spec, Holy. That's why they need fixing.

Sorry not sorry. XD
1 Like
04/25/2018 01:59 PMPosted by Arius
Working as intended? Meaning they were supposed to be bad at PvP and not do much DPS in raids? Why would Blizzard make a spec that isn't good on purpose? I highly suspect you don't know what you're talking about.

::I was there 3000 years ago meme::

Pallys only had 1 viable spec, Holy. That's why they need fixing.

Sorry not sorry. XD


They were great in PvP and decent at PvE dps. Talk to me when you have some more Vanilla experience. All of their specs were viable, they just weren't ideal in every situation. Again, HYBRID TAX. Learn what it means before you start an argument about Hybrids