And x dps to bring down a boss in y time can be done by hybrids.
And my experience with people who pick OP classes are that they want to pad the dps meter as much as possible even if it means they die early in the fight.
My experience with hybrids is that they are the higher skilled because it takes more skill to not only DPS but to also use the entire toolkit to keep the raid going. They are the ones that will actually get out of the fire while the pure classes are likely to button mash and yell when they don’t get enough heals. Or they’re the mages who won’t decurse. The rogues who won’t kick because it hurts their dps. The warriors then blow all their rage into dps, pull aggro and die.
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The math also shows that a raid of Ret Paladins for DPS can beat every DPS check in the game.
Plus if we do the math, then a raid of 25 1500 DPS Fury Warriors if they switched one Warrior out for a 500 DPS Ret Paladin would lose 2% of their total DPS by doing that.
Keep in mind that if your raid is using anything less than Fury Warriors which are the #1 DPS(aside from Ignite Mages but they cheat) then the number will be lower than 2% as the gap between Ret and full DPS will be smaller.
If 2% less DPS is preventing you from clearing raids before the next batch of content, then your raid should considering sucking less in other areas.
Because that 2% DPS is certainly not the only less than optimal thing you’re doing if that’s the case.
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actually it did in fact happen just like that when Shield Slam was redesigned in patch 1.11:
- Shield Slam: This ability has received a redesign. It now costs 20 rage to use and the damage it does is modified by your shield block value. However, the base damage has been reduced. It generates more threat per rage and more damage per rage than it did previously.
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.11.0
this one change alone increased the +Threat threshold for Tanks which allowed Fury Warriors to increase their DPS threshold as a result
TLDR - it was a Fury Warrior’s threat that held them back for the greater part of Vanilla, but once threat was increased for the tank, they were quite literally let loose to go ham on DPS
You say this but then spout off a half-dozen other posts about how if you AREN’T hardcore (going for optimal) you are a loser.
![:cocktail:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/cocktail.png?v=6" ":cocktail:")
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comparsion of ret with dps warrior at first time is a reasonable thing because they are both melee dps and share near every dps item, especialy from mc/bwl loot;
and about dps checks,
no it cannot;
because “500 dps” is for idealized dummy conditions with geared and world-buffed ret;
cold reality is much more terrible;
while having awful raw dps, ret also have a big problems providing it;
ret should wait a little more from the beginning because of uncontrollable burst ( more dps loss);
so if we revert agro changes, ret would become even worther;
it is hard to not to say that a lot of bosses are melee unfriendly, and many encounters usualy have a lot of running to fill its mechanics;
and paladin suffers from its epic immobility (not only in pvp, lol), because you running to things for years (much more dps loss)
warrior have charge/intercept and rogue have sprint, and paladin have only his endless patience;
paladin also have resource problems on long fights, ofc you have rank1, but if you were using r1 spells then you loosing dps again;
you wasting a debuff slot with JotComm (or loosing dps not doing it);
i dont even want to mention a mana drain aura or such;
yes, even to reach 500 dps for ret is very-very hard,
you will see rediculus numbers;
you will see something like 150-220 at start of MC,
and your dps will rise for very small amounts ;
even with AQ40 dream-gear it wont be a big difference (up to 350-450);
sorry but that is not a question of the gap of 2% raid dps (which is also not so little) ;
that is a question of being carried by others;
because it is very not fun to being carried,
even if someone else are not against to see a cat, an owl, a wolf, or a little pink man with a paddle as theirs guild’s maskott
look
you are not competing with someone who dies in void zones;
you are not competing with empty slot also;
you are competing with yourself (but with another gear and talents, or even playing another class);
and the only thing you doing better than holy paladin is DPSing;
you cannot ignore this with just saying “ret is not for dps race”,or “there is only a few % dps loss”
because then there is really no reason of taking you or allowing you to go in dps spec;
this is unhealthy logic and it leads to questions like->
what the reason for warriors to not to go as arms? there is only few % raid dps loss ?
what the reason for hunter of taking ap aura? only a very tiny dps loss,
and etc,
with this statement (like 2% dps is not important) you were able to justify even most retarded “tank” and “healer” talent sets;
and possible utility is not an option, just imagine a mage sucks with dps on every boss and justifing it with “but i have decurse possibility”; or warrior saying “but i giving you an AP buff and possibility of taunt in oh$hit situations”;
i mean paladin’s poor dps(and dps bonus to raid) should not be justified with such things
eh, it looks a little offensive now, sorry,
but a lot of ppl here seems to have a pink colored goggles
(what an ironic hyperbola for a paladin discussion thread)
the core idea is that saying “it won’t be a big dps loss” is not a good idea;
we should focus on finding benefits of spec if we want to see it in raids,
and for now i see only a very niche NF botting benefit possibility;
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"and paladin suffers from its epic immobility (not only in pvp, lol), because you running to things for years (much more dps loss)
warrior have charge/intercept and rogue have sprint, and paladin have only his endless patience;"
lolz
PS - Frost Mages are a cake walk for Ret or Reck Paladins with this talent:
Guardian’s Favor
Rank 2
Instant
Reduces the cooldown of your Blessing of Protection by 120 sec and increases the duration of your Blessing of Freedom by 6 sec.
https://classicdb.ch/?spell=20175
He is. He’s famous for being a whale in a fish bowl.
Actually in 12 years of playing wow +2 years in Swotor it’s normally the bads who FOTM re-roll the most. They’re normally the ones wondering at the end of the fight “But im the best class why is this person wrecking me”
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1.12
Geared warriors were gods
Rets were dog sh*t
As stated somewhere above Pala was good in pvp as shocker
a mage could kite you across all of Kalimdor with rank 1 Frostbolt dude…
while I can 1shot any Warrior with Neretzek or Corrupted Ashbringer while healing myself to full hp
Life Drain weapon proc scaling at 100% spell dmg says hello my friend…
That’s fine, but it doesn’t matter. The discussion is in general, not in “Akaidian’s raid”. You can be as picky as you want but, and this is the kicker, not everyone else will be. Not every guild/raid that isn’t as picky as you won’t succeed either; in fact I’d wager that many will still do quite well, even if they aren’t in a top 1, 5, or 10 percent guild.
No, I’m talking about good, successful guilds and raids in general, not just the top few percent; maybe the top 25-30% of guilds, and probably the top 50% of actual raiding guilds (if not more).
Who the hell embraces failure? Stop crafting these ridiculous scenarios please. No one goes into raiding looking to drag their guild down because they actively yearn to fail. And no, being a Ret, Enhance, or Feral doesn’t equate to “embracing failure”, it just means they want to play a class/build that they enjoy and, get this, not suck at it. That means they don’t want to fail. They may (and should, as all players should) accept failure but they shouldn’t be embracing it.
I’d say that your assumption is incorrect. I’ve known MANY people who pick the OP classes because they expect to be OP without knowing how to play in the slightest. Even with the ones that do, a good number of those are too busy tunnel visioning DPS meters to be aware of the raid. Choosing a rogue doesn’t make you inherently better as a player than someone who chooses Ret. The fact that you even think that just proves that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
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Preach, my brother!
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To be fair the highest DPS check in the game is a boss that’s more or less a target dummy as far as DPS are concerned, and 500 is solidly above the required amount of DPS for Patchwerk’s enrage timer.
Also while 500 DPS can be very hard for a Ret Paladin to do, 1500 DPS is also very hard for a Fury Warrior to do.
Plus if we’re taking full world buffs and every conceivable consumable away from Paladins then we need to do the same to Warriors, and that’s going to swing the 2% in favour of the Paladin since Warriors scale better than every other class in the game.
We have nothing to suggest that Blizzard will undo the threat buffs and even if they did then again, that hurts Fury Warriors more than it does Ret Paladins.
The point is that if you’ve got a person who is a good raider, a good person to be around, and who happens to be a Ret Paladin you aren’t going to kill your raid by bringing that person.
Would it be optimal to bring something else? Sure, but good luck finding 39 other players that are only using optimal setups and are good raiders on top of that if you aren’t a world class raiding guild.
While you say my argument leads us to a place where we accept stupid builds because it’s not much of a DPS loss to the raid, your argument leads us in the opposite extreme where raids have DPS that is almost entirely Fury Warriors, Combat Rogues, and Fire Mages.
After all, why brother bringing more than the bare minimum of Warlock and Hunters that are needed for curses and tranq shot? They don’t do as much DPS as Warriors, Rogues, or Mages.
Ah, but they go into it looking to bring their guild down for their own selfish reasons. That’s the only outcome of being a ret and wanting a slot. You know you’re a liability and dead weight compared to what you could be simply because “muh feels!”
We’re not talking about the incompetent people here. We’re not talking about allowing a tryhard ret in because he’s just as good as the half-scrub raid you have put together and you might as well bring enthusiasm. We’re talking about a full group of competent people and how you justify letting in weakness when there are plenty of other equally competent, dedicated, and tryhard people on more powerful things that can bring more to the table innately.
Again, you’re not doing apples to apples. The assumption is that everyone of the 40 people in the group are tryhard, good players. Go from that point.
A rogue could be half as good as the ret and deliver the same results. Avoiding mechanics in vanilla is easy.
Also, unpopular opinion time: If your raid is capable of tunneling a boss and ignoring a mechanic without dying (even if it stresses healers) then they are better off doing that. It results in faster kill times, which is faster clear times. It doesn’t matter if healers have to heal more. Literally everything is a resource to be balanced for increasing throughput. Just like in racing, the best case is where you push yourself to the limit JUST before you go too far.
dude, a Rogue can’t swing Nightfall
and if you give a Nightfall to a Fury Warrior you neuter their personal DPS which ends up making those few extra seconds of debuff uptime a DPS loss since the Fury Warrior is only putting out 50-60% of their normal dual-wield DPS potential
Good guilds capable of fielding 40 prime people are not limited to “World first” type guilds. Stop selling that lie and I’ll stop selling my supposed lies. There are plenty of guilds who are not bleeding edge, world first race guilds today that still can field whole teams (multiple teams even) of the best of the best. Luckily, classes aren’t so blatantly OP or UP today, so they typically don’t have to resort to doing that, but they can and do if need be.
Vanilla is less about player skill and more about class, as opposed to the opposite that is today.
There are plenty of choices for nightfall swingers that are still better than ret. Arms warr can keep nightfall up nearly as much with still double the dmg. Hunter, etc.
Also, there will be far more rets stary-eyed than just one token per raid, which is the point of this whole thread.
Double also: there are plenty of 2h fury builds that put out 85% of the dmg a dw does. Even on alli.
Actually if we want to be super specific, on patchwork with a “standard” raid composition which is 27 dps its roughly 342 damage per second.
Like 8f we want to be super super specific you could bring five ret pallies and five ferals and like five super God mode firy warriors and kill patches.
Why are we still having this discussion?
lol Arms Warrior in Vanilla PvE DOES NOT EXIST…
And why is that?
Cause Mortal Strike takes up a debuff slot even though it is a completely USELESS DEBUFF IN PVE.
2H Fury with Nightfall maxes out at 900 DPS on PW in BiS forever gear compared to dual-wield Fury Warriors doing 1500-1800 DPS with double KT 1Handers.
How do I know all of this?
Cause we actually ran tests to verify every class/spec that could swing Nightfall.
Got any more “lol logic” to share?
You cant claim statistic data without an actual data set of experimental data.
You know mass reporting someone to attempt to get the last word end wise on a forum post you’ve been proven time and time again to have no proper knowledge on is kinda scummy there second rate ret.
For someone who claims to do all this testing all of your information is YouTube videos and wikipedia pages. You going to actual provide actual evidence to your claims for once?
You do realize the enrage timer on patchwork only requires a typical standard set of 27 DPS role raiders to output 342 damage per second. To say arms without using MS isn’t viable is not only untrue it’s still more damage then any ret has been logged doing.
Then again if you want to provide raid logs for this go ahead because classic private servers do have raid log websites which show damage output.