Ret paladin viability

Not everyone can afford to min/max or deal with people able to farm for raid nights. Not everyone can fill out 40 slots to raid MC. Paladins do well enough if given the chance.

If you actually compare classes, it’s more of that blizzard didn’t really make the holy tree too healing focused. It’s really lacking in specialization compared to other classes.

Your definition and my definition of what a good guild is seems to me to extremely differ as does our perception of what you perceive as garbage. Warriors aren’t OP, you just think they are because you have been brainwashed by negative nancys.

No one says they’ll be loved. No one says humanity isn’t a steaming pile of dung either. Ret is fine in all aspects of gameplay and will regularly pull ahead of other classes. In raiding, Paladins can fill multiple roles as needed so there isn’t a real problem except from people who either fail at logistics or fail at possessing a brain.

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In raids? No. In PvP? Yes if you’re smart.

Is this accurate? I’m not attacking, honestly asking.

Once I admitted to myself I sucked at pvp as a melee, I got decent as an spriest, and I viewed pallies as an easy kill.

But maybe that was before 1.12? Or are you just talking about group pvp?

Either way, I’ll level a pally just because they are so damn cool.

It’s not accurate in the least. People would kite your bubble, LOH had an hour long CD and was a one trick pony to get an easy win catching someone off guard. Healing OOMd you in 3 heals, opened you up to getting interrupted, and still ultimately did nothing to close the ever growing gap of your health dropping while they just smash you.

Reckoning was a gimmick that was easy to avoid in all situations except maybe as a rogue (and also it wasn’t ret).

Actually the problem with ret pallies in classic had more to do with threat management issues, along with some other bugs regarding holy damage producing additional threat (I remember watching a friends ret pally ripping aggro off tanks without much effort when he was competitive, and in some cases smashing his way to the top of the dps charts).

Alot of underutilized class specs were actually much better than was widely believed during classic, but due to bugs and in some cases un-intuitive stat spread (holy pallies had to juggle a lot of stats which were hard to find on plate, and anything but resto as a druid was somehow way to complex for your average player).

Now, some people might say “well being hard to pull off well is what makes x or y bad”, to which I’d say, ok, fair enough, but is that a good reason to just put a blanket ban on those class specs in general? Surely you could take a moment to run them through a high end 5 man as a trial run to see how they do before going on a raid.

Pallies biggest weakness in a raiding environment is going OOM and not having a steady white damage rotation. Rogues and Warriors do over 50%, sometimes 60% of their damage from strictly white hits. This means auto attacks. They get this damage from flurry and slice and dice, both of which increase attack speed. Rogues use a 1-2pt Slice and Dice open initially which propels their damage output, especially in 3pc T2 where your poisons see a significant increase (including a few points into Assassination for improved poisons). Warriors use attack speed for rage generation which allows them to utilize their toolkit of specials, the first of which is generally the hard-hitting Bloodthirst, followed up by Whirlwind (in Vanilla, only your mainhand does WW, not your offhand), and if you have a ton of rage, either Heroic Strike to dump rage, or cleave if you are threat capping (because it does significantly less threat). As you get more geared on a Warrior, you inevitably proc flurry almost every white hit due to your crit chance, thus negating the need to focus on dancing to battle to utilize improved overpower to generate flurry stacks.

Paladins do not have this luxury. Their toolkit is entirely composed around burst yellows in Seal of Command, and judging. Consecration is also useful, but not until you have a lot of spell power, typically in T2.5. So, for the first 2 raid tiers, you are geared more like a Warrior to make those specials hit very hard. This does make threat an issue on some trash pulls. In 5 mans it definitely causes issues, in conjunction with consecration hitting an unlimited number of mobs. Warriors simply have a hard time with threat against a Ret who runs in, drops consecrate, and unloads a string of SoC crits and judges a target. Rets that do this also run oom and are drinking between almost every pull. The key is finding a healthy balance, which unfortunately, significantly reduces your potential damage output. Most Fury Warriors don’t care because their damage is going to close out mobs and put them into kill position. Rogues don’t care because they can gouge, feint, vanish, blind, and maneuver the threat in their favor, all the while doing incredible DPS at every stage.

Onto PvP; Ret is a one-trick pony. But you still do have an amazing toolkit in bigger fights. Most good premades are going to take a Warrior versus a Paladin who freedoms himself and then promptly gets sheeped, forcing a bubble. If you want to end up in a good premade as Ret, you are far, far better off, just healing. You are open to counterspells, chain CC, mana burn, among others. But they are still your best vanguard healer. They are highly durable and offer a one cleanse ability that hits poison, magic, and disease. Priests are more versatile and provide barriers, but Paladins can hit divine favor (hope it doesn’t get dispelled), and land a big flash of light, or in rare occasions, a holy light. Most good teams won’t let you sit and spam holy light. But that’s where the elite shine. They position properly, BoP mages, and keep their enemies at distance. If you’re dispelling a Warrior, most people are going to have issues just getting through that and getting to you. Paladins are hardly as feeble as some suggest here.

And then you get to the holy God status of full T3, where your cleanses are also healing for 400+ coupled with the libram so it costs a paltry 50-60 mana. This is rare of course ;].

Ret, I love, simply because I can wander around EPL and walk up to scrubs, and promptly 1 shot. It’s one of the few classes outside of a Warlock popping ToEP and soul firing, or a Shaman doing the same with CL/NSCL/ES/LB combos that dispatch people as soon as you engage them.

It is a truly remarkably awful class that somehow always finds itself in groups, dungeons, PvP, at the top of leaderboards in BGs, and at the foot of a joke. I wouldn’t have them any other way.

Well that’s just it. Most hybrids don’t really have decent itemization or sets. Paladin t2.5 is one of very few hybrid sets that actually works well with set benefits and all.

But even with half way decent itemization hybrids still fall short of pures when it comes to DPS. An equally skilled, geared pure DPS with similar consumables is always going to out-DPS any hybrid class. Always.

There certainly will be exceptional players who insist on DPSing in raids as a hybrid class and can actually keep up with pures. But they’ll be few and far between. You say give them a chance, but a guild leader doesn’t have time to sift through all that. A guild leader doesn’t have time to run a dungeon just to see if some guy might do mediocre DPS. Most of the time guild leaders will accept hybrid DPS only because they either are more casual or they’re just having trouble filling 40 spots.

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You’re not wrong here.

But hey, now with loot trading, as a Ret, you can gear up your Fury Warrior buddy faster, and have another ally for your spot in that Method raid. :o)

Obligatory kappa.

True, and something else I’d say for players looking to play classes that people look poorly on, is that even if I think guild leaders shouldn’t auto disregard people based on class / spec choices, it’s still up to them to ingratiate themselves towards said person or persons they’re looking to find an in with.

There is no affirmative action wow for guild membership, and being part of a minority spec who’s treated as second class means you’re gonna have to put in some extra work to prove yourself capable.

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In addition, any guild leader who disregards socials and non-raiders, even in top dog raiding guilds, only shoots themself in the foot. Every great guild has casuals.

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Aye, strict elitism only causes the flame to burn out faster :wink:

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Yes! Since BC (and in other MMOs), my guilds have always done this. Everybody plays and contributes in their own way, at their own speed. Back in vanilla we were strictly raiders but we had this huge bank alt guild that was mostly for socializing, so when Classic comes out, we’re definitely expanding upon that idea too.

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Luckily these are cases of the 1% of the 1%. If you are pushing content, WoW is a second job if you go out of your way to max everything out.

BoSalv saves lives. As for pulling threat, holy damage was never bugged. People had no idea how threat really worked for a while. So while your warrior pops a few sunders and autos 3-4 times for about 1500 threat, your paladin swoops in with 2 SoC procs and autos with a judgement in there for 1700+ threat with crit in there some where and you get a pull. With BoSalv you got 1200+ threat and no pull with a really good chance of no proc on the next hit.

Then you faced pretty bad ones. As my pally, all I had to do was watch for your full powered debuffs to cleanse and freedom people you focused. As a ret, all I had to do was keep people tied up because if you left me alone you were going to die, if you hopped around your dps was neutered, if you cced me you weren’t using it on valuable healers, and if you dispelled me it really didn’t hurt much all the while I was supporting and keeping allies alive.

Hehe, my makes me salivate when thinking about that coupled with the baron’s runeblade. Talk about unkillable.

How did this topic reach over 400 replies when the very title makes no sense. The words ret and viable can never be used in the same sentence.

Rets were NEVER viable in vanilla. A lucky few may have been carried out of sympathy but they were not viable.

The thread reached 400 replies because the misconception is that Ret is flat out not viable. Viable is not the same as optimal, nor is it the same as utter min/maxing. It just means you can do it and you can pull Ret off. It’s more of a utility spec. There’s a video linked early in the thread about the US 2nd kill of a boss in vanilla having a Retadin wielding Sulfuras. Even in the past, when it was bleeding edge content, there were Rets being played.

It doesn’t need to be far and away the best - because it certainly isn’t. It just needs its niche. Raiding in vanilla is far more about warm bodies and logistics than it is playing to the absolute maximum.

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Can we get a downvote for misinformation? Seriously, it’s a real pain to argue over and over to people who don’t math.

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Since you never actually played vanilla how about you stop with your pirate server “math” and misinformation?

Ret Paladins were played in actual vanilla, and looking back, Ret has a lot of utility without taking up a full healer slot. Content was designed with sub-optimal play and specs in mind - so it’s not bad to take a few Ret if they’re there. Warm bodies are more important than optimal specs.

I’ve never played or enjoyed hybrids and I certainly won’t play a Paladin, but I’m not one to pretend like Ret is completely not viable. It’s fine for what it is.

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Another person who can’t figure out the difference between “viable” and “optimal”. Ret wasn’t optimal for anything really, except maybe solo BG queues (because solo Q as a healer was nightmarish), but was viable for everything.

Hold up…are you saying the 8 piece tier 3 set bonus SCALES with spell power…? That alone might make me want to roll a Pally.