Ret Paladin Deserves Slight Buff

It’s one of the only two viable tank specs for raids. Your credibility takes a hit, when you can’t admit that your class already has two S tier specs, and certainly doesn’t need a 3rd.

Break out your healing gear or your shield, if you think ret isn’t viable until ICC.

Ret isn’t the only spec that is going to struggle in the future. Balance druid is strong in phase 1, but gets more and more mediocre as the phases advance. There is no jackpot at the end for them, unlike ret who gets to become godlike in ICC.

Ret is fine. No mage will remain arcane in ulda and we need the 3% buff from someone

The only math that needs to be figured out is whether the delta between arcane and ret is greater than between arcane and fire

we’re not asking for ret to be s teir when did anyone ask for s teir ret we asked to not be 1300dps lower than the next viable dps in p2

and the state of p4 boomkin I highly doubt can be compared to p2 ulduar. I have a boomkin and I can’t see starfall suddenly becoming less fun to hit.

Lol this is still going.

Pick up a shield and move on.

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it’s only be 24hrs and has almost 5k views its one of the most active threads on the forums guess people actually care huh.

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IDK what happened to my other post, but you are right - even if you added both T9 and T10 set bonuses and fixed haste/crit scaling, it’s probably still not even enough to fix us, though it’s a start. We’re 20% below Feral Druid, and Feral is already on the very low end excluding Fury. Ret is officially a dead class if nothing changes and nobody is going to bring them to important Ulduar runs. It will stay dead at least until T9 when things start picking up again.

There’s a number of large changes that happened throughout Wrath:
–Divine Storm being changed from Holy to Physical
–Crusader Strike being changed from 110%/6sec to 75%/4sec
–Seal of Blood being removed halfway through Wrath and being shoe-horned into Seal of Vengeance at the last minute, causing our single-target seal to be slow-ramping and making all of our judge and auto damage dependent on 5 stacks of a magic dispellable debuff
–Righteous Vengeance being changed from 40% crit damage on specific abilities like Exorcism to 40% and then 30% ignite-style DoT damage that we see today

and many more. Any of these changes can be re-evaluated, reverted or tweaked to benefit Ret.

The stat scaling is our major issue, as our stat weights are much lower for most stats than other classes. Haste, Arpen, and Crit in particular are much worse for us than other classes. Righteous Vengeance doesn’t do enough to provide good Crit scaling.

All we have is Strength, and Strength is an additive DPS stat, not multiplicative. Multiplicative stats like Hit or Expertise are less valuable too, because we are a spell-melee hybrid, so it doesn’t apply to all of our damage. And even when we are hit capped, we still miss Exorcisms and get partial resists constantly for our spells. We are just a very poorly designed hybrid class all-around.

Yes Fury is in a similar position, but Fury will be much better off in Ulduar, where we will continue to get worse.

People making the arguments that “you should have known Ret was going to be bad and therefore shouldn’t have played it” well everyone knew Ret wasn’t going to be great but this? This is exceptionally bad, most people didn’t expect it to be this bad. Should we just all reroll then? Are we okay with saying “let’s just have Retribution not exist as a class in the meta”? Yes we can all just respec to Prot/Holy and be a slave to the meta… but is that what we really want? I thought we valued more classes being viable?

Most of us have played Ret since Vanilla/TBC, and we have been second-class citizens the entire time, with a class that is written in spaghetti code and underperforms consistently, always being a support class with lackluster DPS and poor gearing avenues, only getting a bit of brief sunshine with seal twisting in TBC – and now the class we love is dying in front of us. Ret discord is miserable now, everyone just laments all the time about how little damage we do and how much we are holding our raids back and what things could be like if we were actually good. And this isn’t even to get started on PvP, where I think we also need some serious help to be viable.

It also just feels like Rets get the bad end of the stick compared to everyone else. Our Libram of Divine Judgement was manually disabled at level 80 by Blizzard for some reason, because it was better than our garbage green quest libram from borean tundra in cleave scenarios and Blizzard thought it was too strong for us to get 200AP sometimes when we judge, yet rogues get to use Felstriker and spellcaster daggers and vanilla energy-generation set bonuses to do the highest AOE dps in the game? Like why would they do that? It feels spiteful and targeted.

People saying “It’s okay that you’re only doing 75% of the DPS of bottom barrel DPS dealers because you bring utility” well you’re just wrong. For most guilds, the ret provides zero utility, or very minor utility. 3% damage? provided by mage. 3% crit? rogue or ele. 3% haste? boomkin. DSAC? already have 2, and gs, and pain supp… aura mastery? holy paladin has it. blessings? we already have 2-3. so yes, a ret paladin’s damage is important, since it’s really all they bring in most 25man scenarios.

I mean I seriously wish I could post pictures of the Statistics chart on Warcraftlogs to show some of you guys really how bad it is. We only out-DPS prot paladins by about 100 dps on Anub’arak, our best fight, a 3-target cleave. We’re talking literal trash here, barely above the tanks most of the time. It’s not just that we are not topping DPS, we are not even viable. Ret community agrees that Ret is basically a dead class, and that you’re kind of griefing your raid by playing it. You are actively harming the raid by playing Ret.

Blizzard probably won’t change anything, and I don’t expect them to. But I’ve also lost the will to play Ret. Blizzard said they would look into any classes that are junk, well if this isn’t junk then idk what is…

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Being fun to hit, and being competitive DPS are two separate, sometimes overlapping things.

Ret won’t top the DPS meters, just like boomkin will find it increasingly difficult to do so. Doesn’t mean they’re not viable.

For all the banter about how hard ulduar is going to be, it’s still going to be a joke. This is a completely solved game. Are people going to be sweaty and only invite absolutely optimal specs for stuff? Sure. I’m positive they’re already doing that. But guilds are still going to clear hard modes with ret paladins.

It shows a lot of Ret rerolls for Wrath are on the forums, which isn’t necessarily a good thing in 2022.

But since you brought it up, half the posts here are letting Rets know we have Dual Spec in Wrath, and disagree.

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most of the rets I see on the forums are rets from before wotlk. most of the reroll rets just seem in the dark in general. And haters are always gonna hate. I hate that dk’s swap meta gems and have a gargoyle that does more dps than 70% of the raid. I hate that rogues are using felstrike and a spellcaster dagger to perform the best burst aoe in the game. They hotfixxed mage meta gem’s for the mana thing and removed rets cleave libram that granted a whole 200AP and yet leave the most OP specs alone?Blizzard said they would balance if it was determined a class was junk is our class not junk?

If Blizzard implements RDF, we can queue from Goldshire and all is good in the world.

And also required that the paladin have bought it with badges from TBC. Most of their aggressive changes have targeted degenerate gameplay like that. Just like I’d expect moonkin to “get nerfed” if they were using some obscure item that dropped off some raid boss in TBC that no one still runs.

People who rerolled ret paladin at the end of TBC, should have known what they were going to get. Everyone knew that with the patch we got, that ret wasn’t going to be competitive in early phases. Still viable, but you’re not going to be sought out.

Blizzard isn’t going to buff you, just like they’re not going to buff subtlety because they’re not viable in raids. For the same reasons. Both classes have viable specs, and it’s not exactly hard to maintain two specs.

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so everyone’s answer is basically reroll lol.my raid doesn’t have room for a 3rd hpal or a 2nd prot pal

Rogues are using vanilla daggers and sets, what about that?
And doing 3x as much damage as us while they’re at it.

How is having a single, badge of justice (aka easily obtainable) item from TBC “degenerate”? Most of us used it in pre-patch. You really betray what kind of person you are with talk like that. And no, we are not viable. The Ret community has basically universally agreed on that. Yes, lots of us knew that Ret wasn’t going to be very good in Wrath, but this is beyond bad, beyond expectations.

Subtlety isn’t viable in raids because it’s a PvP spec. Ret is not a PvP-oriented spec, it’s meant to be a viable in PvE as well - subtlety isn’t. This is a terrible argument, Ret is designed to be the Paladin’s viable damage dealing spec for PvE. Of course it’s supposed to be viable, of course it’s supposed to out-DPS purely PvP-oriented builds. This is basic WoW fundamentals 101.

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rogues can run 2 dps specs one assassination 1 sub for pvp easy enough or do what they normally do run assassination and AOE FoK spec which we must not forget includes a prebis spell caster dagger and Felstriker a epic dagger from Rend in UBRS of all places that’s still bis.the libram didn’t even turn out to be aoe bis or anything it’s just the principal lmao.

Grabbing a random patchwerk log from you:

You did 6300 DPS

Your top dps was some DK that did 7700.

The rogue you claim did 3x your damage? 7400

Your lowest DPS in the group was a warrior with 5400

The variance between you and the rogue (17%) is almost exactly the difference between you and the warrior.

What fight are you claiming that rogues do 15k damage?

we’re discussing p2 not patchwerk which is undead which doesnt take p2 ilvl gains and scaling into account.also its semantics to say 3x literally but in excess of 4-6k more dps absolutely on single target what are the parses of those specs btw cuz a 40parse warrior will obv do bad dps

Guilds still took rets (along with boomkin and shadow priests) in Vanilla. Rets will continue to be taken by most guilds in Wrath. The delta between the best ret and the best uhdk is a lot less than even hunter vs warr in vanilla, and people still took a few hunters. And unlike the adforementioned examples Ret has a great set bonus waiting for them in ICC (whereas hunters just became meme specs by the end).

Of course top guilds won’t take rets in ulduar, but that doesnt affect most peoples experience here. If you are sweaty enough for that then you probably don’t want to play anything that isnt optimal anyway.

no, I was talking about cleaving trash, where rogues are using their Fan of Knives sets, and where our AoE damage is completely mediocre. Check out Overall Damage statistics.

if you read the chat history most people are saying its a 5% dps gain its not even that great divine storm would have to slap for it to be that good.im glad we need tiny abom t10 2pc and shadowmourne to do damage. also the slogan of classic was #nochanges the the # of wrath is #somechanges.warriors were busted due to world buffs plain and simple.