We fight more from range then in melee. We toss hammers like a hammer bro, spawn stuff from the ground and do alittle dance spin jig for our finisher as it spawns a hammer in the distance. We have very little actual strikes that requires to be melee other then auto attacks.
TS helps slightly with EP/EL helping as well with being in melee, but not really warrior-like. But there is no reason a guy with a big weapon needs to have 80-90% of his skills fighting at range.
Paladins does very little to show actual martial skill.
Judgement has always had a range. DS has an 8 yard range, HoW is a thrown hammer and has always been a ranged attack. BoJ comes out of the ground and baked to cause consecration and expergation. Consecration used to come from our feet but would still tick if we moved. This was simplified for button bloat but it did not move when we did. FV is basically melee, CS and TS are melee, exorcism back when it was ret was a spell casted at range, DT causes judgements to enemies in range and again judgement has ALWAYS been ranged since itâs been in the game. It used to come from the sky but now comes from our hands and TH now crashes to earth instead of judgements smacking people in the head.
What you want either did not exist the way you thought it did or you want something totally different.
Thatâs an over simplified and exaggerated explanation for it but I think you knew that already.
thanks doctor obvious it always had been ranged. thanks for the new info. Please give me more of your wise wisdom.
Btw judgement wasnât always tossing hammers, it originally holy energy spawning above an enemy to hit them from above, it could be glyphed into different weapon shapes.
basically melee, which ep and el covers. can you people please READ MY POSTS!
As an execute. not a rotation ability it turned into. It made sense as an execute, not as a rotation skill.
traditionally as a 10 yard range skill. it became a mid-range skill with jurisdiction.
The only change I support really.
Itâs essentially apart of BoJ at this point, no need to point that out at all.
The movement part came from a talent. which was removed, but not traditionally apart of cons. but yes it did used to spawn when we casted it from our feet.
FV IS 20 yards range with jurisdiction. 12 yards without. non-optional pick up due to blizz constantly only buffing it and refusing to bring TV/JV up to it. And this is the skill I was referring to that looks absolutely dumb.
Please read posts before commenting them. I already mentioned TS. CSAA can be ignored due to itâs low damage, itâs only taken for free HP when we do get in melee, which we are not played in much, specially in pvp.
Itâs spiritually in our mastery now, no point in bringing it up. Which is another thing about paladins, we lost our ability to blast things with light magic, we now need to solidify it into a hammer and then toss it. Itâs literally a joke.
The most boring CD that ever existed. btw, tosssing hammers, soooo knightly. /sarcasm
yes, we toss hammers. sooo much better⌠/sarcasm
You have no idea what I want. We should be in melee more then not, some range is ok, but not 80%+ of it. BoJ is not a traditional paladin skill btw, it was a legion invention. but even then 10 yards was fine with it. FV should had never been ranged. HoW should only be an execute, you cannot escape justice of course. But never as a rotational skill it became. Specially with RG being the poison that it is.
There is nothing warrior like in paladins currently other then tossing hammers and maybe doing one swing that spews fire (Which is pretty cool btw, we need more of that, not more hammer tossing or spawning hammers from thin air, which btw the light is more then just hammers which is another topic of contention I have.)
I donât think Iâve laughed that hard at a forum comment in a while. Seems I struck a nerve. You tell me not to bring up stuff when itâs relevant to the point? I did read the comments but if bears repeating then I said it. You kind of killed the conversation point of this entire thing but thatâs par for the course here.
Laughing at your general reaction and the fact you got so upset. We have different view points. Weâre 2 people talking and only 1 of us has made an assessment of who the other one is as a person.
Self awareness has nothing to do with this and making that statement is just you trying again to push this where it wasnât before. Iâm not the one who got angry.
Their design is meant to transcend seasons and sometimes expansions.
The tier set is thought of in consideration of the base design, not the other way around.
You would be designing backward.
The tier has already been designed now so thereâs not much to be done unless they really have time on their hands which everything tells me they do not since TWW launch.
Nonetheless, I donât think we should limit the suggestion to the context the tier creates, it will be gone.
ts and cs was viable all df, cause in df we didnt have 60%+ uptime on hammer of wrath and our spenders cost 4 holy power instead of 3. thats why ts and cs worked. heck it worked in tww alpha cause we didnt have radiant glory.
making ts a single gcd wouldnt fix its core issue. itâll feel better sure but it still wont have a placei nthe rotation in a world where divine hammer fights with it for priority and hammer of wrath is your filler button
nerfing csaa to 1 hopo per 3 autos in a season where crusade is dominate will change nothing, it wont make ts more viable itâll just make ret feel worse outside of your rg windows. (keep in mind we are still bloated with holypower)
dont bother, he is set in his ways and wont change. talking to brie is a great way to derail an entire conversation into a 40 reply long mudslinging competition
also btw, they design tiersets with minimum conversation with spec design team. for some reason. hence why some of them are just really really really weird
This was more of a revamp of the one they had in WOTLK. Only this time it applies to all spenders and not just the AOE one. Point taken though.
I see your point but that hasnât been the case in a while. Reworked in DF and then the addition of hero talents in TWW. I doubt that Dev team even reads anything on these forums but my reasoning is youâd have more luck getting smaller changes now which are far more possible than getting CS back the way it was in years past.
One more button already button bloat? LOL come on many other classes have always had many more buttons than us, even when we were in shadowland and we had many more buttons (in my opinion best gameplay for Ret)
In fact TS is much more fun
CSAA itself wouldnât be a problem but there are OTHER talents that enhance it enormously, the first of which is Zealots Fervor which has risen to 40%⌠40% is A LOT
The real problem with the gameplay related to CSAA is that it has completely overturned what Ret paladin has always been, with him it becomes that you player react to the various appearances of the Holy Power and consequently reward your spenders⌠Ret paladin has always been the OPPOSITE that is that we players had full control of the Holy Power and after a âwiseâ management of the Holy Builders it ended with the right Holy Spender⌠Now instead both the Automatic HP and the extremization of Blade resets via Art of War taken to the extreme by Zealoth at 40% which buffs both AoW and Csaa in a ridiculous way (and in aoe Csaa + Empyrean Power despite being at 5% is a continuation of Divine storm given to you) makes the gameplay become a continuous REACTION to things that you âsufferâ and not to an Active ACTION by the player that makes certain things happen under his control (I specify that a minimum of RNG is always welcome, but not that itâs so overwhelmingâŚ) and I DONâT LIKE all of this Iâd like to have control of my character again and not the other way around⌠the hypothetical TS builds go in this direction
we dontr have button bloat, but we do have resource bloat which makes us gcd locked. adding ts is just gonna feel bad, heck when it was bugged to do double damage it still felt bad
In my opinion the âgcd problemâ is really a very small thing, is it such a big drama to have a few 1s or 1.3s of gcd more? it is really a very small thing; it is infinitely better to have a 90% dereministic rotation (I repeat a little bit of rng is fine) and not completely left to procs and passive automatisms that characterize the entire gameplay.
On how it could be enhanced and interact TS with the current toolkit of the Ret I intend to open a new topic when I have time to write it.
With the current rotation at this point that requires a rework(or more seemingly UNDOING of a rework) to do. Also SL ret paladin had the least representation of DPS in M+ which is what got that play style changed in the first place. Perhaps it just needed a damage buff but the dev team felt otherwise and it worked. It was over tuned and nerfed after that.
Iâm going to go back to the original point and what I was referring to:
Contradiction in the same sentence.
I am adamantly against nerfing CSAA for another added button on an already proc heavy rotation. I have no issue with the rotation being more interactive and less clunky but at the current point the way that ret paladin is situated CS being added is less than ideal.
Again, the original statement was to nerf CSAA to reintroduce viability of the conventional rotation of CS/TS instead of asking for a flat buff for CS/TS.
If you want conventional CS back Iâm not against it but there are people who are happy with CSAA. Again if YOU want it then have at it. But they can not make a post saying that talent points should be an option and also state that you want a viable option nerfed. Thatâs counter productive at best.
The spec is still mostly what it was after the rework.
The only major shift was Radiant Glory and even this doesnât really âchangeâ the gameplay.
Hero spec are doing exactly what they were said to do, add flavor, admittedly badly tuned for some spec such as for Ret but as far as theme goes, itâs generally spot on.
They donât completely upend the game play, they barely change the rotation.
I do not believe it is not considered, the rework took aim at the exact topics that have been recurring on the forums since the legion rework.
It targeted specific aspect that were to often discussed on the forum to be a coincidence.
I donât think itâs like a task or something, I donât think itâs anyone job to stay on top of forums discussion about design but they definitely took notice of part of the feedback.
This is a good point. Were it not for DH, I could see the specific version Iâm putting forward be used specifically in AoE/cleave over HoW.
And it would depend heavily on tuning as well.
That being said, Iâm working under the assumption that DH is on borrowed time.
It is no secret that I think this interaction was an âhappy mistakeâ and that the tweaks they made to it creates more problem than it solves.
I do not believe it will make it to the Midnight expac next year but I could be wrong.
I have nothing to propose as to why other than to point at what I already said on the matter in other threads.
The big problem is that with the Csaa Builds you can keep uptimes of over 90% of both âShake the Heavensâ and âDivine Hammerâ stuff that with TS is unthinkable unless youâre really lucky with the new Tier set (which obviously has higher procs with CsaaâŚ)
Now as easy as it may be to imagine a change like TS that lengthens Shake the Heavens by 2 or 3 seconds with each press, itâs a whole different story for the new DHâŚ
I canât wait for the day when this Gap between the two possible Ret pala and the two legitimate game philosophies can be reduced as much as possible⌠if in season 1 we were oscillating around a 3% difference (tolerable) now we are over 10-15%⌠no longer tolerableâŚ
There would be billions of ways to expand TS, Iâll quickly reel off a few before dedicating myself to an ad hoc topic:
Much higher Dot damage (like when it was bugged? maybe)
Interaction with âShaketh Heavensâ by 1 or 2 seconds more
Shorter CD?
Better interactions on the DOT component:
4.1 Separate proc rppm on âSearing Lightâ
4.2 âblades of lightâ that makes the dot Holystrike and therefore interaction strongly enhanced on âDivine Arbiterâ? (maybe too much)
Reduced Gcd also on Strike and not only on Slash?
That it basically hits more targets? For example a total of 3? (so as to make the procs of EP even more certain)
Further enhance Heart of the Crusader?
If Csaa has as strong points the various compulsive resets of Blade and the various higher uptimes and the absence of gcd. TS should have a row damage contribution that compensates for all these interactions that benefit Csaa and that TS cannot have by its natureâŚ
Another injustice is the position in the talent tree of Zealotâs Fervor (fundamental for csaa) unlocks a fundamental gate by itself⌠TS build instead must necessarily take 2 points in Heart of the Crusader and 1 point in the alternative passages to ZealotsâFervor (and therefore we cannot take Blades of Light)
i would be glad to read it, but most topics about ts and cs buffs end up falling short cause it never hits the key issues of ts to begin with.
its not just dh tho, its RG as well. its also no secret that im upset that the majority of good additions to ts was dumpstered by the addition of RG into the spec. it makes me feel like ts and all its new fixes was just a waste of dev time because Hammer of wrath becomes our new filler.
i wont be surprised if DH ends up kicking the bucket next expansion. dh could have been easily a aoe version of BOJ but then bov appeared, now theyre doing what they can to make it have a place.
this isnt the reason why csaa builds are stronger than ts. ts had 0 uptime issues of shake the heavens early tww and it especially doesnt have issues keeping uptime post buff either. divine hammer ya it throws a wrench into ts since it makes itself a priority with spenders, while ts tries to make it second part higher priority than spenders due to it being stronger.
buffing ts to extend shake the heavens by 2-3 seconds effectively wont do anything. cause you can still have 90%+ uptime of it anyways
its also the tier set we have this season, a tier set that wants you to spam spenders for 4 seconds, so you are not using TS in priority.
itâll feel bad cause your wasting dh uptime and tier procs cause ts is fight for priority with it.
again pointless cause shake the heaven uptime was still high with ts
maybe? still the same problem what if its off cd when your procs are off cd, while dh is active. less time pressing ts will mean less ts dam, speding 2 globals on ts during dh instead of doing the generator spender generator spender loop to maximize dh windows will feel bad, cause yoru doing , generator generator spender ts ts spender gen gen spender ts ts spender
why not just combine the 2 i guess?
blessed champions already makes ts hits 5 targets?
Brother there is no buff that would make templar strikes better than current crusading strikes and you are absolutely insane to even ask 1hp per swing.
For ts to be viable, crusading needs to be nerfed. Ts already deals a lot of damage you cant just buff it endlessly otherwise the rotation becomes spam ts over spenders and that is a design disaster.
Csaa needs
-an attack speed penalty of at least 50% to civer for fervor
-a 1hp every 3 swings change.
Ts also needs its cd cut by a lot to vasically be used in every open window. If you enjoy csaa fine but ts should also be viable. You will never convince me a set and forget talent should outperform actually pressing a key
Csaa is also heavily favored in talent interactions like extension of shake the heavens (should be changed to autoattacks not cs).
Winston, fetch me the basket of rotten fruit. Yes, yes, I wish to throw it at this chap like an Avengerâs Shield toward some idiot casting spells at me.
idk why this line of reasoning is spreading. ts had a very high uptime of shake the heavens as well. especially post shake the heaven buff. please keep in mind due to sth icd, sometimes especially during crusade and heroism. csaa sometimes doesnt even grant the extension of sth.
its also insane that people think gutting csaa to one swing per 3 autos is a viable option, when youâll still use csaa but itâll feel WORSE.
you had to fundamentally change 3 things this season to make ts viable. radiant glory, divinehammer, and our new tierset. hence why in season 1 ts was just 3-5% depending on gear, behind csaa. being that much of a margin behind makes sense.
i know i wont convince you that a passive ability should be stronger than a active, and design wise youâll be correct. but historically with how alot of specs are played, a passive ability will always give more better results than a active ability (devistator, demonblades, ect ect) no amount of tuning even buffing the active version by 50% will change this.
