Honestly, M+ wise, it’s pretty much the same as PvP , generally heavy spikes of damage.
If anything I’d argue PvE (M+) is worse, especially on certain bosses as the Heavy Spike or RoT damage be it ST but generally more AoE is even worse then PvP.
If they made the lifeblooms applied by a PVE version of early spring not benefit from any talents/have a shorter duration then I think it’d be ok. You’d basically get an aoe bloom that happens in a few seconds and heals for a moderate amount.
Soul of the forest/wild growth is a fraction of the healing of a spirit bloom with no echoes or lifebind attached to it if you compare resto to pres.
Obviously there’s a lot more working parts to our healing profile so comparing one aoe heal vs another isn’t super accurate, but from an effort vs output standpoint it’s very frustrating.
Agreed
maybe if they just made wild growth instant cast like in PvP and increased its healing a little.
Also Agree the ‘main’ problem with R Druid is needing to hot everyone up so our Mastery takes effect.
It takes time and wastes our mana especially when a person is at full health / doesn’t need healing.
We actually have a talent the increases the time on Rejuv WHEN a person is at full health so Blizzard expects us to waste globals and mana hotting up a full health target lol.
In terms of total damage going out, sure. But there are several key differences.
First, the attack patterns are scripted. You know when damage is going out to the group, you know when individuals are going to take damage. Sure the target of the individual damage might be random, but you know when you’re going to have to be prepared to switch to spot healing. The enemy mob isn’t going to switch their damage event from the target you just put an external on to someone else knowing you no longer have that external for the second target. We have far more control over putting our globals into the right place ahead of time.
Second, we don’t have to worry about having our DoTs dispelled in PvE. The bloom on removal part of lifebloom is a primary protection against offensive dispels in PvP, making it more important for lifebloom in particular to be on as many targets as possible. For as good as lifebloom is in PvE, we can make up for not having it with other HoTs.
Third, Verdancy is a big benefit in PvE that is much rarer in PvP. That’s one of the main reasons I think getting lifebloom on the entire party frequently would be much more overpowered for PvE (specifically small groups) than PvP. Each added lifebloom increases the verdancy procs we get; that’s why we largely don’t bother lifeblooming ourselves unless we specifically are one of the 2 targets, we’d rather get more blooms for verdancy than have the increased HoT tick rate.
So yes, both have spiky incoming damage, but there are some pretty stark differences as well.
Perhaps. The suggestion I responded to didn’t make any mention of a lower duration lifebloom. If that is what they intended, there was no way for me to know to comment on what they actually meant. The way it read was basically just put Early Spring into PvE, which leads to the concerns I’ve shared.
I won’t attempt to dismiss your frustration at the amount of effort required to keep up with something like a spirit bloom. Resto druid definitely has to spend A LOT of globals setting up any kind of good healing on a target and there is room to pare some of that back.
But at some point we do have to acknowledge this is what you signed up for by playing druid. Being able to spend GCDs now for healing later with a positive feedback loop making each subsequent GCD both more powerful itself and making the previous GCDs more powerful has significant upside. And nearly our entire kit is built that way.
They do, but that’s not really the right way to look at it. You need to look at that mana and global as an investment that you’ll get a return on later. Druid has by far the highest potential healing capability in the game.
The problem is that Blizzard has tuned our HoTs to be so weak on their own that even medium damage events require us to commit 3-4 globals, let alone big damage events. So we have to commit so many GCDs to the cause that we don’t have time for much else. And on the biggest damage events we run the risk of having some of our HoTs run out before the event is over.
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And with increasing the globals we need to hot up people will mean that haste is more important than mastery at some point just so we can pump through those globals a bit faster especially in emergency’s. (lol)
This has been the case for a while now, even during the times when we didn’t need 3 mastery stacks at all times on everybody to keep the group alive through even small damage events. We’ve always wanted to free up as many globals as possible for other things due to us not getting any overlap between damage and healing, outside of CDs at times.
here are some changes I would make. let me know if I’m crazy:
- prowl: cooldown reduced to 5 seconds (from 6 seconds)
- fluid form is now a baseline passive ability, for all druids, from level 1
- nourish (spell granted from choice node, competes with grove guardians). no longer grants the spell (nourish) to the player, but makes every 3rd casting of (Rejuvenation) grant 1 stack of (buff: nourish) to the player. buff (nourish): causes the next Regrowth cast to also cast (spell: nourish) at 100% effectiveness at the target and 1 other nearby target within 20 yards. stacks up to 6.
- wild synthesis (talent): your periodic heals and consuming (buff: nourish) has a chance to summon a grove guardian (keeper of the grove) or a wildstalker vine (wildstalker)
- (edited to make sure feral druids don’t feel the need to reshift constantly): ursine vigour renamed to bestial vigour. “after shifting into bear form, your health and armor are increased by 30%. after shifting into cat form, your movement speed and critical strike chance are increased by 30%. each effect slowly fades over 8 sec and can only trigger once per 3 min”
- astral influence now improves the range of all your attacks and spells by 5 yards
- sunfire damage over time effect will impact all enemies within 8 yards (improved sunfire rolled into sunfire now)
- new ‘edge of the eclipse’ talent where ‘improved sunfire’ used to be. “wrath applies the damage over time effect from sunfire to all enemies within 8 yards during a solar eclipse. starfire damage applies the damage over time effect from moonfire during a lunar eclipse”
- improved stampeding roar is now a choice talent node. you can choose from improved stampeding roar (reduces cooldown by 60 sec) or guttural roars (stampeding roar removes roots/slows)
- inner peace (choice talent node): both choices will now also allow the casting of tranquility while moving
- heart of the wild: now a passive. automatically triggered when you shapeshift into a combat shapeshift form or cast starsurge. empowers the next 20 spells or abilities not associated with your current specialization. passive effect lasts 60 sec. can only trigger once per 3 mins
- call of the elder druid: using abilities not associated with your specialization will reduce the cooldown of heart of the wild by 5 sec.
- dream of cenarius: all damage done by you now causes healing, not just specific damage abilities/spells. this healing now causes no threat.
- power of the archdruid (choice talent): wild growth now causes your next rejuvenation or regrowth to apply to 2 additional allies within 20 yards of the target (chance increased from 60% to 100%)
- nature’s vigil (passive): all single target healing also damages a nearby enemy for 20% of the healing done. this damage causes no threat. (activate): effects increased to 100% for 15 sec (for guardian druid, this works in reverse. you’ll now passively heal allies for 20% of damage done at all times, increased to 100% for 15 sec when activated. for balance druid, you will also heal allies for 20% of all damage done and 100% for 15 sec when activated. both paladins and druids are being pushed into a design space where they can do some ‘offhealing’ as a true hybrid class)
- Forest’s Flow: Consuming clearcasting now also casts nourish onto a nearby injured ally and grants 3 stacks of (buff: nourish) (removed text: “at 60% effectiveness”)
- Cenarius’ Guidance: will ALWAYS use an exceptional ability, based on your current specialization. (example: as a healer, you’ll always cast tranquility. and while that’s casting, other druid spells from convoke will also be cast at the same time) (note: spells cast by convoke are weaker versions)
- Invigorate: refreshes the duration of all your heal over time effects on the target, and causes them to complete 200% faster (now affects all heals not just specific ones) (note: this is intended to be powerful, it only affects one target and does nothing if there are no hots on the target first, and will mean you need to re-cast your hots on the target after this effect completes if you are using it on a tank for example)
- overgrowth: apply all heal over time effects that you know to an ally. They instantly heal that ally for 30% of their total periodic effect and their duration is increased by 30%
- unstoppable growth: wild growth’s healing falls off 30% less over time (reverted)
- improved wild growth: wild growth heals 1 additional target and lasts 2 sec longer
- verdancy: when lifebloom blooms, up to 3 nearby allies are healed for (107.76% of spell power) (players no longer need to be standing directly in your efflorescence to benefit and it’s 30% stronger now)
- photosynthesis: your healing has a 4% chance to cause lifebloom to bloom. when a lifebloom blooms, your periodic healing on yourself and the lifebloom target complete 2 sec faster (up to 6 sec faster) and your periodic healing effects on yourself and targets affected by lifebloom are extended by 2 sec (up to 6 sec) (note: by ‘your healing’ I mean it works exactly like it currently works. any healing you do, including the periodic heals from the lifebloom itself, can cause it to bloom).
- undergrowth (choice talent): lifebloom now casts an additional lifebloom on a nearby ally and yourself
wildstalker (rework needed IMO)
- bloodseeker vines and symboitic vines both just renamed to ‘wildstalker vines’. when on an ally, they heal. when on an enemy, they deal damage
- new glyph to change vines appearance to insect swarm
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I get that Nourish is basically a bad word for resto druids. However, it is one of the most efficient, if not the most efficient, casted single target heal in the game by a mile. While it’s a choice with Grove Guardians, it may as well not exist; but removing it completely for times when a druid might need to tailor their kit to single target spot healing would be a big loss for no real reason.
Your idea for further improving Regrowth based on Rejuvenation casts is an interesting one, and something that might be worth considering. I don’t think it would belong as a choice next to Grove Guardians, and like I already mentioned, it shouldn’t replace Nourish; but I wouldn’t mind seeing that as an option somewhere in the tree.
This would be absolutely horrendous for the flow of feral. This would be owlweaving for feral all over again, and I don’t know of a single feral druid that liked when it was correct to shift into moonkin 4 times a minute.
Perhaps shifting into cat could gain a utility benefit, or the talent could be worked such that it only worked for non-feral specced druids. But if feral druid can gain cat DPS by shifting, it’s going to make the optimal play to constantly be shifting after we’ve burned through our energy.
Blizzard already removed this going into TWW; it’s unlikely it’s going to go back.
But even beyond that, this change would force feral and guardian druids to take specific balance and/or resto talents to reach, yet again. I ran Balance Affinity for 8 years for the range increase as a feral druid, and had to waste 3 points into starfire, sunfire, and moonkin form all of DF to get to this talent. As much as I don’t want to lose the range, it is really nice to have flexibility into how I get down the right side of the tree (Rising Light, Falling Night still shouldn’t exist…). If Blizzard is going to allow feral and guardian to get the range back, either Astral Influence needs to be centralized or a separate physical talent needs to be put down the left side of the tree.
This would be a drastic nerf to the talent in a lot of ways. Being able to control when I go into Heart of the Wild is important given how varied it can be based on different dungeon and fight timings.
Is there any other healer that passively converts all damage they deal into healing? I feel like if the damage > healing conversion ratio was tuned such that it was noticeable it would be completely broken.
How would this work for balance and feral druids?
But even beyond that, giving a passive healing > damage conversion is also likely going to be tuned to be useless or overpowered.
So we get a major healing cooldown every minute while also getting 8 other mana and CD-free spells over 3 seconds? Is this list a genuine attempt at improving resto druid to be more in line or make it the only healer anyone ever brings, ever?
There is exactly zero chance a single talent will combine Verdant Infusion and Flourish together, much less for merely a 20 second CD.
Overgrowth is already a pretty good talent without these additions. Now if it’s going to compete with the new Invigorate you came up with, this would probably be required. But I really don’t think you understand how good getting 4 HoTs instantly onto a target already is.
Verdancy is already one of the most powerful talents in the kit for PvE, and you want to make it stronger?
So all instances of healing you create cause any of your lifeblooms to bloom? Or just healing on the lifebloom target? If the former that is unfathomable levels of overpoweredness. If the latter, that wouldn’t be as unbelievable, but getting a Flourish-like effect onto every lifebloom is still pretty wild.
So I get 3 lifebloom applications from a single global? At this point I’m not really surprised, but this would also be quite good.
I wouldn’t say you’re crazy, and there are some elements of some good ideas in here. But some of these ideas are absolutely bonkers level of overpowered by themselves, much less if Blizzard were to implement even a few of these. As I am writing this, resto druid has the second highest HPS in mythic raid according to archon. And while it’s not disc priest or shaman, it’s also middle of the pack on M+ score from archon, including being featured in like half the runs during the past 2 weeks of MDI.
Resto druid has issues, and certainly playing it doesn’t feel good compared to the last couple expansions, IMO. But it’s not so far off the lead that it requires biblical levels of buffs to make up that ground. If Blizzard implemented any of the last half of bullets you put here today, resto druid would become the #1 meta healer in all content and it wouldn’t be close. Perhaps that was your goal. But as someone who would much rather advocate for more balanced specs, I really don’t want to see a spec catapulted to the moon just because it started slow out of the gates. Even the specs I happen to play.
These are the only thing in the list that doesnt seem either overpowered/broken, just dont consider how the other 3 specs function that we’re sharing a class tree with, or ignore how a spell work will across all 3 types of major endgame content. Some are a good start to workshop from though.
Tranq not being castable while moving just feels stingy on blizz’s part. Its already a poorly tuned cooldown that (like to many talents at this point) doesnt get run for its own healing in 2/3rds of content but for a side affect.
PoA: healers dont like rng, and rejuv really needs some way to spread around better in raids, i think garunteeing every other wildgrowth would be better for balance, a slight technical nerf for more control then the current talent, but tbh 2 extra rejuv/regrowths every ~15 seconds (cause we will still be waiting on swiftmend and soul) doesnt seem op tbh.
Sunfire: yes. Should have never been changed.
This feels like a broken overcorrection. Even in tranqs nerfed form this would be to good since we can run convoke in raids, thats 4 tranqs every 3 minutes, which would be broken or they would nerf tranq even more into the ground. Unless you want to also remove the duration decrease which would then ruin it for keys where convoke every minute is most needed.
Garunteeing its current exceptional ability which is a mini flourish would be a decent upgrade though, convoke is our only reactive cooldown in 5 mans and its rng nature leaves us high and dry sometimes when we need it, reducing rng by garunteeing no matter what gets casted we get 3 seconds of hot extension and a small tick rate boost would be okay if theyre not gonna un-choice node photo and real flourish, it might push convoke a bit in raids but itd add up to 1 full flourish every ~2 and a half minutes which is reasonable for loosing incarn and its impressive treant/keeper synergy.
Keep current heart how it is, move current oath to a choice node on it; people who want control for specific timing have the button press, people who want an easy acess passive can just shapeshift once a minute.
Now that dream heals by default for resto it doesnt need to be locked behind a heart trigger, if people want it to be stronger they can pick either option in the class tree. It’d clear a point in restos lower third which desperately needs more flexibilty.
Im 50/50 on this one. On the one hand having all damage permanently converted feels like itd either be really overtuned and lean to much into old(Mop) style disc or tuned to be worthless. On the other dream’s filler only approach has so much anti synergy with restos other dps options; liveliness’ dot focus, the finisher requirments for kitty MS, the entirety of wildstalker, that it really only works for keepers spamming wrath in incarn or the instant starfires from regrowth spam. I think opening it up to include rake and moonfire so liveliness doesnt get left out entirely and wildstalker has some synergy would be enough.
Would ruin the spell for feral and balance, same tuning problems with making dream work on everything, itd either be really op or useless.
I like this in theory and it was sugessted a lot before we got treants in DF as a spot heal solution since the current version of the talent is really bad only affecting rejuv and lifebloom; but resto needs a good cooldown that doesnt require a ton of ramp to save someone and this doesnt fix it. If it did go through itd need to be a 45 second cooldown instead of 20.
I feel like this wouldnt do much, if youre running verdancy its because people are already consistently standing in your efflo, in fights and groups that isnt true you just dont run verdancy. 30% buff is eh, resto is an hps only healer so if we and holy priest arent absolute top in raid thorough-put ill never say no to some extra hps.
3rd no cooldown lifebloom seems op with all the things tied to it, i think just removing the 10% heal reduction on undergrowth would be fine, lifeblooms already got strong synergy its just that one bit holding it down. Maybe a really good pvp talent for 3v3 arena though.
Do you want feral druids to hate you? Cause this is how you get feral druids to hate you. Being forced to shapeshift out of catform rotationaly for a crit buff would be worse then any owlweaving or druid of the claw nonsense blizz has pulled in awhile, the speed increase and buffs to bearform would be fine. Feral and balance really need a better defensive, even if it is just being able to eat bigger inital hits in bear to shapeshift back out quicker.
Eh. I dont think the prowl change would make much of a difference without a vanish so sure. Make sure fluid forms a toggle for those weirdos who dont want to auto shift and the occasional pvp niche, if you want to make fluid form good have it work on skullbash so it isnt the most inconvenient interrupt in the game.
Would have a major impact to the overall flow of balance and theyre dot managment system especially a full aoe moonfire, i dont think its bad but its very much a balance mid center or capstone, not a start of class tree pick.
It also does absolutely nothing for any other specs, since eclipse is balance only. There are talents close to that (looking at you, starlight/LotG for feral and primal/IotC for balance) but they still technically work with things any spec could pick up in the class tree.
Reign it in to the nearest 5 targets and sure, more utility would be nice, what we have is okay, if lackluster now that every other class has been buffed up substantially in the utility field, but we were the utility class back in the day with shammy and paladin and im always fine with another reason to bring the class to raids besides mark. If its broken on one specific raid fight blizz can just patch it like they did trolls racial on jaina or the dwarf racial in castle nath to be reduced or excluded from that one mechanic.
The whole nourish rework thing is interesting but tbh kinda over complicated when resto already has a ton of tiny things to track.
I think it just needs to go from its own spell to a regrowth upgrade to be viable, keeper is never gonna not run treants which leaves the only place we can take it being wildstalker.
For wildstalker its worse then regrowth in every way: worse heal to cast time ratio, worse mana to heal ratio, doesnt spawn blooms, doesnt leave a mastery stack for other hots, doesnt proc any of the great synergy things regrowth has from rampant to forest’s flow to strategic infusion.
It does eventually win out on the mana/cast time to heal at like >4 mastery stacks but if youre maintaining that many on everyone all the time youre unlikely to have the gcds free to cast nourish between all those refreshes and regrowth will be one of the things youre refreshing anyway. Also its not like treants arent a convenient tool for wildstalker being castable instantly and while kitty weaving, its just got to much stacked against it.
- Nourish: heals a friendly target for (446% spell power) and leave the regrowth hot on the target. Receives 300% bonus from mastery. Receives all of the bonuses from and replaces regrowth.
^ I would run that over treants when wildstalking keys.
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Just clean up my class tree, make tranq good again, and give me a couple more points to use in my spec tree.
Im a simple woman
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Ya its called mistweaver monk.
I forgot about the Renewing Mist application on Rising Sun Kick and Crane Style talents that will heal completely passively; so yes, technically that is correct, thank you for the clarification.
With that said, both of those abilities on their won’t heal for much passively. I did think about mistweaver before I made this post, and the bulk of the damage > healing conversion requires actively spreading Renewing Mist, using your celestial, and/or using/standing in Jadefire Stomp. You can’t just walk up to enemies and start kicking them as a mistweaver to get out any noticeable amount of healing.
That was the spirit of the comment I made here. The suggestion was that there would be no trigger on Dream of Cenarius, you could just start dealing damage for up to a 100% damage > healing conversion. Which would be better than every other healer’s damage > healing conversion rotation by a wide margin, including those whose entire healing profiles revolve around dealing damage.