The problem I see there is that now if you get an X level key of a dungeon you don’t want, you’d be penalized for simply completing it - disregarding the timer - because then you wouldn’t be running that level M+ again for any other reason than pushing.
Yeah untimed m+ dungeons would be like a mini 5 man raid, but with a key system for scaling. That’s pretty much it.
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You would be getting the loot the first time around. But if you already did freehold 7 once you should not get freehold 7 loot again if your forced to do it again that is. Mathmaticaly it would be rare to get those repeat’s, especially if Blizzard put in a protection preventing repeat dungeon keys. But I can see your buddy having that key, in which case only you would be locked out if it was a new group.
Normally I would agree with you that complex system design is a poorer choice when compared to a simple alternative, but that assumes that each design is meeting the fundamentals.
I can only speak for myself and I posted way too long of a wall of text earlier, so I’ll try to keep it brief - but to my mind, the M+ timer is a failure in that it clearly inhibits the desire of so many to attempt M+. We don’t all need to agree with the various reasons people dislike the timer, but we should try to appreciate that clearly the timer is failing.
The way I would imagine replacement systems is that they would target the higher end keys specifically. Start things simply, add complexity at a leisurely pace. New key level, new mechanic introduced. It astounds me somewhat that it isn’t already the case. M+ should be designed to attract players - I just know way too many people who enjoy dungeons and dislike the idea of M+.
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This is why I don’t and never will run mythic+. Took about 2 runs in the beginning of Legion so see this was the most toxic thing Blizzard ever added to WoW and have never been back. The rewards are not worth putting up with those people.
The timer is optional though. Groups can go for completion.
I do think that completing the run could not decrease the key as a change to make it seem better, though personally I think the dropped key is a positive in that it becomes something easier to time.
Dungeons are not raids.
Dungeons trash is a big component to what the encounter is, and makes up the majority of what you do in the dungeon. in dungeons trash can be some of the more difficult and challenging part. Have an unlucky butt pull of a pat, gotta react accordingly or wipe and restart the pull.
Raids, trash is just that, trash, pointless trash.
I find raids boring because it’s such a slow slog of a pace.
If you want a mini raid ask for that. Don’t ask for dungeons to be changed to mimic raids.
I think that you are imagining something that you think is going to be amazing fun but it is not going to be. The ideas here have slowly come together to form something that could work. I think what you’re not seeing is how incredibly boring it would be. Think for a second about these 2 scenarios - go get yourself a set of 410 gear and go run the M0 dungeons over and over. Let me know how fast you get bored. To be fair I sort of think this style of play is what you do already. You dont even do M+ so you don’t know how much strategy, coordination and planning actually goes into a push key. Second - Basically what you’re asking for is raids except 5 man. How boring would it be progging the same raid boss over and over and then going and killing some trivial trash, already the worst part of the raid? personally if that was what M+ was I would quit the game.
Run with friends? Welcome to the most fun part of the game.
Don’t have friends? Make your own group and put a description in the title describing what exactly you want from the run.
You are welcome, I dont charge for my services.
You can just do timed m+ and pretend that untimed m+ doesn’t exist. If you want to do timed m+, go do that and be okay with untimed m+ being different.
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That’s ultimately why I don’t really care if they have an optional mode to remove the time. A timed run doesn’t mean as much as it used to, unless your goal is to progress keys.
In fact, I think a lot of people still think that untimed runs are heavily punishing.
Oh, I thought the loot lock out you were proposing was based on strictly just key level, not key level and dungeon.
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Nothing in mythic+ and and nothing in warmode would ever make me step foot in either. I don’t care what they add, I’m not playing that toxic stuff. I’ve seen friends turn on each other in vent and in guild chat because of both. Not worth it.
go go go mentality - see WoWcrendor video for best example. It is when someone no longer feels they have the time to wait for the following: Food, mana, explanations, wiping, learning, talking, stopping at all, pacing, distance, people who can’t do tricky wall jumping, people who run slower due to class design, dps who needs to stop to cast/heal, any short AFK, and especially anyone with any opinions that contradict the gogogo guy.
This person has lived under stress for sooo long they have snapped and now has become the bringer of stress to others.
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People also don’t realize that just by doing the dungeon at a regular pace you will time most keys up until about +17. That is when the actual strategy comes in. Even most 20+ groups arent screaming at each other during the run - you preplan your route and run it optimally… there is no gogogogo from everyone unless you’re getting close to the timer, there just isnt stopping to chat after every pull.
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What is your definition of toxic?
Most runs aren’t like that, tbh. The few that are come from people who are expecting players to know everything perfectly.
As Corb said, making your own group can solve that problem. Just make it clear that you don’t know everything about the dungeon, if that’s the case.
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How about we do what’s fun for us and you do what’s fun for you. I see lots of people jumping in here with their 2 cents saying that the one thing that turns them off from m+ is the timer. This satisfies the demand.
You can just go do timed m+.
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Ah so your mentality is because something could happen, it will happen everytime. You must be terrified to get out of bed in the morning for fear of meeting a snarky stranger on the subway. Realistically, the amount of times you’ll get into a key and have the toxicity completely ruin it is extremely low. But do you i guess, you’ll never get to experience the fun the rest of us have
That’s the thing I didn’t find it fun at all. Why play a game and have 0 fun?
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