Remove the Debuff Cap / Buff Cap, Make WoW Fun Again!

Maybe I only played in noob guilds, I did get in to Naxx for a few bosses, but at least from what I recall, no warrior tanked in dual wield fury, and all tanks I remember playing with were protection specced in high end content, although I do remember some kind of “hybrid” spec for the non-main tanks where they had a little bit of prot up to last stand, and the rest in arms/fury for appreciable damage.

At least, to vanilla players of 2004-2006, warriors couldn’t do both roles at the same time in the same gear appreciably on the hardest content.

Now things are different simply due to “metuh” and players pushing the design to its originally unintended limits and that result is what scorns some players.

only thing you posted from blizzard was a bunch of crap from wrath :expressionless:
if you have some black and white vanilla definition of a hybrid given by blizzard, post it. no, i don’t want to see any “inferences” or “implications”.

I already did.

No, you did not :expressionless:

So because you’re too lazy to scroll up I have to go through the effort of reposting it?

Yes, there’s too much crap in this thread for me to scroll through :expressionless:

That’s part of my objection to DB. Yeah sure, 18 years later, if you spec a warrior a specific way, check off all the slots on your BiS list, get all the best enchants, all the world buffs and flasks and play to a certain level in a specific raid scheme the potential exists to outclass rogues where they should shine.

Then there’s things to look at like a 4 year old permanent P6 realm with a definitive ceiling, no new treadmills or balance changes that come in a new expansion blah blah blah.

Classic, specifically Era, despite some recent changes to the pvp system is a take it or leave it proposition regardless of what flaws you can find both real and imagined. Some people havent quite got the message I guess.

Blizzard, 2006.

Notice how they said a rogue is not a hybrid simply because they deal melee damage. It’s because they have no option to heal or tank. Despite they fact they try to tank, they have no spec for it, and thus are not considered a hybrid.

This is a 2004 citation (from the same Blizzard webpage describing party roles just 2 years prior) that alludes to the idea that tanking ability is a crucial element of whether a class can be called a hybrid. It also alludes to the idea that Hunters & Rogues can be considered hybrids but this quote was actually changed later on to express a different idea, but it is at the least a view in to the 2004 mind of Blizzard.

Another thing is that while you keep dismissing the Ghostcrawler citation from WOTLK, if you actually read the damn post, you’ll see that he is addressing vanilla and TBC pretty specifically:

As you can see, by the “THIS PHILOSOPHY LARGELY EVOLVED IN WRATH” statement, everything he was saying was specifically applied to pre-Wrath. GC was also the the Lead systems designer of Vanilla, so if for some reason there was any other major school of thought I’m sure he would have listed it for the class as that’s what this post was about, a complete investigation on the meaning of the word “hybrid”.

Hybrid has to do with what you can SPEC to do (pre-WOTLK). Period.

I just checked logs of top guilds on Jom Gabbar and most warlocks use a single DoT, corruption. It does more dmg than I remember though, around 20 pct of overall DPS, and only about half of that would be recovered by using those GCDs for sbolts instead. So you’re looking at a 10 pct gain from each warlock having the freedom to cast Corruption. Great for sure but nothing comparing to world buffs. I maintain that in tier 1 no world buffs by itself brings warlocks closer to top DPS than no debuff limit does. And in P6 they are not close no matter what because warriors and others have scaled enough even without WBs.

EDIT: also if you had world buffs corruption and other DoTs would be less powerful vs. Sbolt given how sbolt scales with crit.

That said I would like the debuff limit removed even if it didn’t change the meta because using more abilities is fun.

where there does it say warrior is a hybrid? surely if warriors were a hybrid and it’s sooo obvious, you have a blizzard quote from 2004-2006 where they explicitly state warriors are a hybrid, right? :expressionless:

The point is that Warriors are a hybrid by definition.

However, it’s obvious that Warriors were the special exception to the rule that applied to every other class.

That’s Despitebeings whole point. That Warriors were unnecessarily special.

Now…I disagree with him on whether that should actually be changed for Era, but the fact of the matter is Warriors were explicitly coddled and given special considerations over this rule.

For that we do not know the reasons.

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Can we say that it was intentional like that though? That the devs knew how OP the class would be under a level of minmaxing that few achieved in Vanilla AND that they were given that higher ceiling on purpose? We’re working on decades of experience on the last patch of Vanilla that they obviously didn’t have at the time.

You and I agree on this, and while this is for the best, its never gonna happen again in the same way, or at least I highly doubt it will because of how badly SOM died after BWL that is now also lumped into the same failure mode as lack of world buffs.

What Blizzard may not understand is that Content after BWL has a different style in terms of the theme, and the way loot is distributed I think also comes into play here as why people do not like raids after BWL…

Its not even a difficulty level problem either; look at Classic 2019 where everything was post nerf and faceroll ez, even post nerf AQ was only lightly harder than MC and yet massive dropp off after BWL

All they gotta do is have a separate server one with buffs and no wbuffs. Except the no buffs server will be dead

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The solution is to add more spellcaster focused world buffs. Ossirian head drop should give 5% spell crit and spell haste

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Yup, Caster buffing buffs would help, OR just change the existing world buffs…

Example, Rallying Cry could also give +200 spell damage and healing.

I like the AQ head drop idea, tho make it 15% haste for melee and casters and also gives casters 100 spell power; and make the haste component of this not stack with War Chief Blessing.

If we’re going to make custom changes to era, I’d rather they not be things that mean more tedium in the game to actually take advantage of. Adding additional world buffs to track and watch out for is not my idea of a well-crafted tweak to class balance.

I don’t like doing world buffs already as they are. You’re just making my raid prep more unenjoyable.

What about the next seasonal. One server with buffs, one without

That way, instead of people ripping the fun from one audience, they both get what they like.

I’m never for removing anything at all. That’s dumb.

WB arent such a bad fix for the problems, tho this would create new problems…

Such as we buff locks too the moon baby! and now why would you being mr.zug when locks are never gonna get clapped in a cleave.

Or if we buffed boomkin to the moon (no pun intended here) but if so why bring any other DPS?