How about you quit over it and we can find out.
Same question, what will adding dual spec do that will make your gameplay experience so terrible that you would make up how much of the population is for or against it?
Not literal compulsion or arm twisting, no. But you’re trying to make a case for it so you’re trying to convince somebody and you might think something is being accomplished through doing that. So that doesn’t ring true for me.
All Im saying is whatever the criteria or rules are to get your preference some consideration it applies to both sides equally. If there’s no such criteria that’s fine too. If all you have to do is want it then all I have to do is to want to not want it according to the standard set here. All Im trying to get across.
You have a preference and a reason why you prefer it that way, that’s it. You prefer a little extra convenience in the form of dual specs. Some people prefer to not have dual specs and the convenience they provide. Those things cancel each other out if neither side has to twist anyones arm to get their way - so we’re back to the status quo.
I dont think the idea or discussion of dual specs are off limits - I dont think its wrong for wanting them - I think if a very good case can be made for them and there are enough people wanting them in the game then it should be given some consideration. I havent seen that yet though and Ive already explained why. This is just a war over preferences, and unless something comes down that clearly makes dual specs the better way to play TBC for every subscriber Im of the opinion its better off to leave it alone.
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Neat!
That’s not the only reason Dual Spec provides convenience. For some, it is maintaining a second useful PvE role, to be used either in a very competitive manner in speed-running or otherwise hardcore guilds, or to be used for dungeon runs where CC and AoE reign supreme, or to be used for highly efficient farming. For others, it is maintaining a PvE and a PvP spec, respectively, so that when raid time ends regardless of the day of the week, BGs and Arenas can be run without having to hit Azeroth first. For still others, it is maintaining a spec you know and understand and comfortably return to, while having a 2nd spec that let’s you freely experiment with new things, get a feel for new roles, etc.
Finally, there are those people that simply like making their character better, stronger, faster, etc, even if those things aren’t even used. There are plenty of folks running around right now with four Gigantique bags on their character who rarely if EVER fill up their bagspace before they hit a vendor or think about selling stuff. There are probably people with a Riding Crop in their bags who often forget to put it on when mounting up, but that didn’t stop them from shelling out excessive gold to get one early on in TBCC. Unlocking things on your character makes people happy, makes them feel like they have yet another thing to achieve and earn. That in and of itself is a good thing.
You’re an old coot because you argue like an old coot, despite the fact that you’re probably a decade or more younger than I.
Spare me modernist tripe.
People against the idea of dual spec are unlikely to find substantial interest in maintaining that status quo, and the health criterion is a foregone conclusion. The Devs aren’t building TBCC around diehard purists or even purists of any kind, they’re building it around the modern Classic audience. We have modern Dev statements that show the old respec models of Vanilla just didn’t do what they were supposed to do, ever, which is why swapping specs became the non-decision it always has been.
Furthermore, the Dev intent on meaningful choice/design gets centered around CLASS choice and the identity felt while playing said class and playing a spec. Choosing a Druid over a Rogue should be meaningful, and it is, since I can’t turn into a Rogue, and all progress on this Druid doesn’t amount to much of anything on any future Rogue I roll. On the other hand, altering how my Druid plays only became more and more open as the game progressed into the modern era with the modern audience.
No, that’s not how any of this works.
If we, for the moment, treat all opinions on the matter as equal and subjective, then as far as convincing EACH OTHER is concerned, no one wins. That’s why all the gatekeeping is silly and pointless.
However, that doesn’t mean Blizzard can’t pick a winner or loser out of the bunch. My subjective preferences, and the reasons for those preferences, may be the literal reason why Blizzard chooses to add Dual Spec when we get T6 or ZA released, even if my particular set of preferences aren’t the most popular, or the ones that got shot down by you guys regularly.
The goal here isn’t to convince you, but Blizzard. That’s why being told to shut up and sit down by others is just bad form. I know people disagree, I’m not here to get them on board. If I convince some neutral people, neat, but when folks come out the gate as openly hostile and close minded as they do, that’s just futile effort.
We don’t have to make a “good case”
We’re not here to convince you. You keep adding modifiers to the mix that don’t belong. Blizzard doesn’t need a good case, they just need a case.
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And no one would force them to use these if they were put in the game so it would remain unchanged for them.
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I am a tank, I only play the game for raids, so you are saying I would play a tank less in dungeons if dual spec existed? I already raid log because I am not willing to respec every time I want to do something other than tank. I’d just rather log off and do something else.
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You forgot that we can choose to not use the feature - see how it makes everyone universally happy?!! You’re just opposing universal happiness.
/sarcasm
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This is very true. You are against a feature that no one can force you to use. I am trying to figure out HOW it would negatively impact your gameplay experience?
As I wrote in the other superfluous ds thread:
It’s not a solo game. Things that change the way you can play also change my options and how I have to play - whether or not I want it. Constraints make people do things in ways they otherwise wouldn’t. They make people have to meet others or group up when they otherwise wouldn’t. They make people go out into the open world or grind specific mobs they otherwise wouldn’t.
There’s lots of ways people play and interact with each other that change when constraints are removed. Some constraints are a good thing - they encourage and facilitate fun types of gameplay.
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I’ve tried to get an answer to that and noone can really give a good tangible in game reason beyond simply knowing it exists which they find annoying for reasons.
No that’s not the reason I gave. I said that it will change the way people play the game. I gave an example of people soloing world content instead of grouping. You’ve continually ignored any of the many substantive points that we have made - all while offering very little to substantiate your own petition to change the game.
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They can do that now without dual spec, and do do so. So once again this is not a problem with dual spec.
Only if there’s others doing it too … the constraint makes this happen, you take it away and people simply will choose the more convenient option available to them. This is a case where convenience works against the intended design of the game which tries to motivate grouping up in world content to some degree. The point of the constraint is to motivate people to play in this way.
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That you don’t find the reasons “good enough” is your opinion.
I personally find the reasons pretty compelling.
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No they don’t there’s very little open world content where spec is the difference between can and can’t solo. And you know what guarantees you won’t get a group for it? People not being in the open world at all because of their spec.
It sounds like you’ve picked a behavior you don’t like, that already exists and are trying to claim that somehow dual spec would be responsible for it. When if anything the opposite is true. You are simply wrong in thinking lack of dual spec forces people to the way you have deemed “correct”
Considering you don’t even know the difference between dual spec and retail specs you lack the basic knowledge to even form an opinion.
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Yeah sorry I should just continue to note how your words aren’t very consistent with your actions. Its not that big a deal to you thats why you have to post like its a big deal to you.
Well that might explain your quasi inquisitorial firmness on the matter but it falls short of being convincing. Anyone who is subscribed and playing is the Classic audience and that can include everyone from purists to people who want vanilla with LFR and pandas. I dont see a reason to cater to one over the other (unless the game is going to die tomorrow if they dont) and I dont think that’s Blizzards intent with the classic games.
Do they want to modernize it and tweak it some, sure. Do they want to turn TBC into Wrath when they can just release Wrath? Im not so sure.
The game changed and was changing. The changes you saw with each expansion were to coincide with the sub metrics and the content of the time. They were not necessarily improvements either - the jury is certainly still out on whether these changes were good and made the game better. It just happened that way and you’re saying it was because the devs had a super great handle on what they were doing, why they were doing it and what the results were gonna be. Class Fantasy going Legion was a great move…
GC keeps getting brought up here but when that guy got to LoL he was telling people in interviews he was happy he didnt have to design a game around your grandmother playing it anymore. So I hear ya, dual specs will definitely help my grandmother.
No one is gatekeeping dual specs. It is an actual, legitimate preference to not want the extra convenience. Its actually okay to like a grindier style of play believe it or not. You’re not an evil gatekeeping purist if you prefer your TBC without dual specs. You might just be a fan of TBC. This is just more of the aforementioned demonization of dissenters.
You have no choice but to treat all opinions equal here because the space doesn’t exist to differentiate between the two and you’ve been working really hard to keep it that way. You don’t need to make a case for dual specs, you don’t need a reason for dual specs - hell, you dont even need to think they’re even somewhat necessary. In turn I dont have to make a case against dual specs. We just swap preference stories and your preference isnt any better than anyone elses which is just how it goes with personal preference. You like pve and i like pvp. Thanks for sharing.
All you need to do apparently is know you would benefit from dual specs, think theyre a really great idea, create a bunch of false dichotomies and unnecessary labels like “purist” and “modern Classic audience”, imply there is a war between them which only one can win and conclude it just so happens to be the side you identify with. Then just sit back and wait until Blizz figures it out for themselves how amazing it all would be and implement it for you.
Its not so much that you dont have to, its that you can’t. I understand your reluctance to truly go down that road. I mean, you’re right in a way, you dont have to put out a peer reviewed thesis on why they should be in. Even so, a real honest assessment of the whole thing might not end too well for you.
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Completely wrong. The game would get easier and more convenient as a result. Game changed for them - game changed for everybody. Thats what happens when you change the game.
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I still haven’t seen a valid argument how dual spec makes your experience worse. I acknowledge that other players affect us all but how does dual spec in the game make it a worse game?
That’s your opinion, in my opinion my reasons were logically valid and sound.
You’re within your rights to dismiss my reasons with or without countering them, but you can’t claim I didn’t give reasons.
I do wonder why you think it is on me to prove why your suggestion shouldn’t fly, rather than you to prove why it should?
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