That’s not true. Most of the forsaken were raised without any freewill or voice or understanding of what they were doing. Sylvanas was because Arthas wanted to torture her and he did.
He paraded her as a prize and example of what will happen to those who resist through the streets of Quel’thalas. He caused her so much pain and agony she screamed out as a banshee against her will killing the people she she gave her life to protect and forced her to watch. He took and preserved her body until he could think of even crueler ways to use it to torture her. Arthas took it to a whole new level with her.
She did… She helped them break free from Arthas in the first place. She protected them when Garrosh wanted to use them as fodder during the battle for Gilneas to spare his own troops. She even says in BfA she pitied the forsaken. She cares for the forsaken just as she did the citizens of Quel’thalas she gave her life defending as Ranger-General.
Her lasts thoughts as she made her last stand against Arthas and charged towards him was sorrow that despite giving everything she had she could not stop him and Quel’thalas would fall.
Alas, I wish this was true, but we learn from the Nathanos story that they were, on some level, aware. They weren’t mindless - they just had a hand in their minds, pulling them from place to place, giving them a driving hunger, giving them joy after every kill. The full effect of their actions reached all who broke free of the lich king’s grasp - with Sylvie she didn’t get that luxury from the beginning, of being made ignorant of her own actions.
And again, sure, if we’re ignoring her voice in all this, you could absolutely look at it this way.
But she didn’t protect them because she pitied them, and didn’t aid them against arthas because she understood it was a goal they all had. The forsaken have always been a means to an end for Sylvanas. “Arrows in her quiver”, until Arthas’s death. Expendable. Merely a weapon to be used. And then, after his death “A bulwark against the darkness.” Canon fodder to throw between herself and death.
Maybe she pitied the forsaken, but not enough to care for them. And QUEL’THALAS?? Sylvie raised blood elf soldiers during the war of thorns - despite Lor’Themar and his people, HER people, begging her not to.
Sylvanas has always cared for herself, which…
Yeah. This is true. But put this recollectioon in context - this is her justification that hope is meaningless. That there’s no point in fighting the inevitable - because SHE couldn’t. She thinks she’s revealed this big truth of the world that nobody gets - she’s self centered.
Let’s also not forget how Syl threatened Lor’themar by withdrawing forsaken protection in the ghostlands if they refused to aid in the northrend campaign, very little care for her former people in that regard.
I feel like if we even go back - protecting Quel’Thalas was even more out of pride than anything else. Loyalty may have been a part of it, love for her family maybe - and then Arthas came.
Shattered her ego and her life into pieces.
With Lor’themar…I feel like at that point Quel’thalas didn’t matter to her anymore. HER Quel’Thalas was gone, taken from her - because she failed. It wasn’t the same and therefore wasn’t worth caring about.
Well I was bringing this up because the previous poster implied Syl still cared for her people, yet that is false as we saw her more then willing to sign the death warrant for the remaining Sin’dorei if they didn’t do as she wished. Especially after just fighting a civil war against Kael.
So, I kind of defer to Wowpedia in a number of aspects. It’s tough to know Sylvanas’ true thoughts on anything since … yeah that’s just a mess.
That portrayal comes across as someone who at the very least cared for the Blood Elves to some degree. I know Wowpedia isn’t a perfect source, but it seems to suggest she was still concerned for their safety.
In undeath, Sylvanas still considers herself one of the foremost protectors of [Quel’Thalas](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Quel%27Thalas), and repeatedly offered assistance in the form of supplies and troops to the [blood elves](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_elf). This is due to the fact that the Dark Lady still had a lot of love for Quel’Thalas, its people, and identified with them on many fronts.[[44]](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sylvanas_Windrunner#cite_note-44) Though the sin’dorei initially declined most of Sylvanas’ offers, fearing a trick,[[45]](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sylvanas_Windrunner#cite_note-45) the beleaguered elves eventually allowed Sylvanas to station Forsaken soldiers in their lands, most prominently in the village of [Tranquillien](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tranquillien). She appointed [High Executor Mavren](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/High_Executor_Mavren) to assist [Dame Auriferous](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dame_Auriferous) in defeating [Dar’Khan Drathir](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dar%27Khan_Drathir) because he used to fight the [Scourge](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Scourge).[[46]](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sylvanas_Windrunner#cite_note-46)
Sylvanas played a large part in convincing [Thrall](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Thrall) to accept the blood elves into the [Horde](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Horde).
I still feel like it’s really easy to see how all of this benefits Sylvanas, which…seems to be why she does anything.
If the Blood elves join the Horde, that’s a blow against the alliance, and more arrows in her quiver. That’s magical prowess that rivals the night elves, despite their weakened numbers. They’re a weapon - a rusty, pitted one, but a sharp one nonetheless. All she did was sharpen it and clean it off. As for Dar’Khan Drathir? Perhaps that was personal - but it also cleared the last of the organized Scourge forces from Lordaeron. She secured her place in the world and gave herself room to organize.
I think the most telling part of her mindset is the Northrend campaign. In this moment, her people have just been more or less freed from their addiction, and are recovering from a massive shift in power. They’ve been betrayed, they’ve lost so, so much…but Sylvanas doesn’t care. Arthas is in her sights, and the blood elves could change the tide of war for her.
And she knows they’ll do what she wants because she put them in her debt. She’s manipulative in the extreme. It’s kinda sickening when you look at it altogether.
So ignore the other stuff as 4D chess, and focus on when she threatened to pull the Forsaken troops away from Silvermoon if the Blood Elves didn’t send troops to Northrend (you know, to fight the Lich King).
If this is the hill you want to die on, be my guest. We can just agree to disagree and find out whatever the right answer is rattling around inside her head in her post-mortem book.
There’s plenty of “Sylvanas bad” moments, it just seems like she actually cared a bit for the Blood Elves. It could be all her evil master manipulative plan, but it never comes across that way.
I would enjoy it if Uther’s sense of compassion also extended to Sylvanas as yet another victim of Arthas. It may not equal forgiveness, like he said but having compassion would be the first step in trying to walk her back off this ledge.
the Arbiter judges people based on what they did in their LIFE.
Sylvannas was more heroic in her life than the character player. Everything bad she’s done, was done in undeath and would not be considered by the Arbiter.
Fully expect a redemption for her to be sent to Bastion, where the painful memories she has can be ERASED to give her closure.
Did it say in some interview that the Arbiter also evaluates the events of non-life, or am I confusing something? That is, the Arbiter, in a “normal” situation, evaluates all the time that the soul was outside the Shadowlands.
I think they are referencing the introductory cinematic that says the Arbiter judges based on the events in a persons life.
I don’t know about undeath and I’m not sure the game says either way.
The Scourge were created by the Jailer (via pass the macguffin). They were the result of the Jailer influencing the universe from the Maw. I don’t know if the Scourge were the first undead, but it seems like there weren’t “supposed” to be undead in the universe.
Was the Arbiter even programmed to know what to do with them?
I have no idea what the answer is for any of this.
Then again confusion seems to be my state of being in Shadowlands. I think I’m just supposed to do the whole “squint, hand-wave, move on” to ignore these holes.
It was just said that it would be interesting if a soul would be judged for things done in undeath as well, and that on the cosmic scale undead are a extremely small number so it’s not really a problem, but they also said that being called back from the shadowlands as undead just pauses your journey in there and that you’ll resume it after. So presumably you’d not get judged again if you have already been judged, and if you’re in Maldraxxus for example, but be returned to there. Although it’s vague.
And we actually have a description of what Sylvanas saw after her first death, before raised as a banshee, a pleasant place of golden fields. So maybe she will end up back there if we kill her undead form.
Why not? Everything a Forsaken does is done in undeath. Choices freely chosen are still things that the being is liable for. To suggest that everything that Sylvannas did is outside her agency is to diminish her as a character.
Because it’s specifically stated that the arbiter judges people based on their actions in life. It’s also been stated that the act of being raised into undeath changes a person. Does it absolve them? No…but as a construct designed for the purpose of judging things based on their life, why would it care about what it’s done during is undeath? Algalon didn’t give two shts until we beat his butt.
From the view of the arbiter, undeath is just another phase of life as the soul has not passed from the living world. So it makes no difference. I’m not talking about mindless undead. I’m talking about undead which clearly have agency and free will which Sylvannas is part of that set.
Algalon is not the same deal. His operating system was binary…Does Azeroth have x amount or more of Old God goodliness on it? If so, execute Operation: Annihlate!
Then its a good thing Garrosh ended up in Revendreth, Kel’thuzad in Maldraxxus, Lady Vashj in Maldraxxus, Kael’thas in Revendreth…
Even Arthas wasn’t going to go to the maw, hence why Devos went over the arbiter’s head to ensure he went there for Uther.
Sylvannas will be judged on her life, not her undeath. Because she was stamped by the Jailor when Arthas raised her, as are all the forsaken/scourge, created by the Jailor’s domination magic.
She’s a victim of Arthas, much like Uther, and is pained by her memories, that the Kyrian conveniently take away.
She’s manipulative in the extreme. It’s kinda sickening when you look at it altogether.