RE: Reaping and M+ trash


(Varrow) #1

I wanted to respond to some comments in the recent interview blitz we’ve seen. There were various comments that I’m going to sum up as the following.

  1. They want us killing more trash
  2. Reaping is too easy

Most of this is about the trash comment. BfA Mythic+ is already longer than Legion by a good bit overall. There are no short dungeons. Dungeons like King’s Rest always push the maximum timer.

Trash is wayyyy harder in BfA than Legion. They’ve taken steps to reduce this, and that is appreciated. But when you look at things like Fortified, Sanguine, Bolster and how those interact with BfA dungeons design we spend a whole lot of time on trash as it is. Tyrannical in general feels MUCH better balanced as far as what you spend your time doing.

If they want us killing even more trash I think it needs to get neutered back down to Legion level. Where we’re pulling big and fast. BfA trash design just doesn’t let you do this due to how dangerous the trash has become.

Just a bit on Reaping. I agree that it’s maybe a bit easy, but it’s also been fun. Even when you look at the MDI and them pulling huge reaping packs into bosses and such. Like there’s a lot of good fun factor there, and I just want to emphasize that. I HATED M+ with infested, that was not a fun affix at all.

BfA trash takes plenty of time as is. Whatever changes they want to make, I really hope it also ends in a net less time spent on trash.


#2

Yeah, that comment about more trash floored me. Some places, like Motherlode, feel so awfully trash heavy already. Even on tyrannical weeks.


#3

They stated that they thought Motherlode has way too much trash. Not really a relevant dungeon to this discussion.

The way I understood the talking points was the problem was with skipping. Ideal dungeon runs to them should involve much less skipping than they currently do. They believe they’ve made the trash percentage requirements too low, because you have to do like 4 skips a dungeon not to bust percentage. If they up the required trash to make percentage, they cut down on skips.

I do agree that still there’s just too much trash in the dungeons, and would love to see packs outright removed. I’m not a huge fan of skipping all the time and am glad if they make changes that make convoluted skips non optimal.


#4

the recent 8.2 comments from various dev interviews further proves/suggests that they really do not play the content that they supposedly design (in this case M+)

one comment:

‘we realize that the trash in motherlode is an issue but we are not sure what to do about it currently’

MAYBE DECREASE THE TRASH DENSITY !?

second comment:

‘we don’t like the importance of trash skipping through tools such as rogue shroud so in the future we want to emphasize trash more by requiring more trash killed for forces percentage completion’

in other words they have plans to turn M+ into a mode such that all dungeons have motherlode levels of trash AND you have to kill more of the trash, good god what a dumpster fire


#5

They’re not talking about adding more trash, I don’t think. They don’t want you skipping the trash that’s already there.

I definitely wish there would be less trash, but as long as timers are adjusted, I do think basically forcing groups to kill the trash they’re currently skipping so I don’t have to do risky skips every dungeon and reduce the requirement for rogues is better than things are now.


#6

well I sincerely hope if they want MORE trash killed then the health of said trash is proportionally decreased

because otherwise the timers will have to be significantly increased across the board and I don’t want to imagine some frequent nightmare scenario of spending 40+ minutes on trash per run


#7

I doubt there’s any intention to adjust health. Timers being adjusted seems very possible.

I think you’re overestimating how much this will probably add. I mean how many skips are you doing in a typical dungeon?


#8

well that depends on how much ‘more’ is when blizzard says they want us to kill more trash

if it was some hypothetical number of 10% more total trash relative to what we kill now in dungeon X then the corresponding increase in timer would not be large

either way the vast majority of M+ players including myself hate the trash-focused design of most BFA dungeons so requiring more trash killed (resulting in a higher tuned timer which then results in more time spent killing trash) will likely be unpopular


#9

Oh I hate the trash focus design too, don’t get me wrong. That said, I wish I didn’t have to do 4 skips to do shrine right, or skip the first trash pack in KR, which makes even a single death a massive burden, if not a total key killer, just to do the dungeons optimally. Many skips seem to add a great deal of risk to dungeons, and I don’t find that fun. A lot of times I vote for just killing it rather than risk it even if it costs us time.


#10

I agree with you

And my answer to that dilemna is to simply remove that extra trash, I have no desire to have timers increased for the sole reason of having to kill more trash with the same health they had previously

Like the bridge in shrine, why are there two adjacent packs of 4 casters each ? Why not just one pack of 3 casters or 2 caster + 2 melee ? Something needs to be done to remove the absurd need to interrupt stacking in shrine.


(Gurthäng) #11

TBH they can just leave the trash as it is and just reduce the health they have, no reason a caster mob should have the same hp of a melee hitting mob when each cast that goes off takes 25% of you hp. Shrine on fortified is almost impossible to time cause adds takes so long to die and theres so many packs to clear and you cant pull big cause everything needs interrupting.


(Salmonsteak) #12

I rather you use ML as an example than shrine tbh.


(Gurthäng) #13

Same apply to ML the trash on the third and fourth part of the dungeon have so much health and do so much damage thats not worth killing, and they give very little % per pack. ML is much easier to pull big than shrine tho.


#14

+1 for Infesting being just the worst. Reaping has been FUN! It still has the potential to be deadly, but playing smart can negate this, which is how it should work.


#15

an affix that requires planning and control was unliked by most DPS players

but an affix that allows full ham mongo AOE DPS is appreciated

who would have guessed, i’m in the minority, liked the slower pace of infested planning/pulling (similar pace to dungeons in patch 4.0 cataclysm), hate reaping and all the bad things it propagates about modern WoW dungeon design


#16

I agree, but I also disagree. I do enjoy the slower place of planning, and the satisfaction you feel when your group pulls it off perfectly. I fondly remember my days in Shattered Halls, coordinating CC, in the days before you could just pull 20 mobs at once and nuke it down.

However … we’re not playing the same game today. Gone are the days of coordinating CC … M+ has a timer, and the timer requires you move quick to time the key. The designers have forced us into this play-style of full ham mongo AOE DPS in order to complete high keys in time. It was that way with Legion (even more so really) and it’s that way again for BFA.

I would have loved Infested … if we weren’t constantly trying to race a timer. If M+ was just about completion, I wouldn’t mind Infested at all.


#17

yes that is the greater overarching issue here, that there is zero challenging 5 man content outside of speedrunning because blizzard is incapable (or refuses) to implement such content closer to old school classic/TBC/cata dungeons

the original ‘megadungeon’ version of mechagon in 8.2 will be dead on arrival because its ilvl rewards will be similar or lower than insert garbage faceroll activity you do outside in the world solo within 5 minutes


(Varrow) #18

I will be shocked if Mechagon doesn’t have competitive ilvl gear when it launches (like Karazhan did).

However, while I’m still not sure I would like Infested the way it played out regardless of anything else I can agree that it would be nice to see INTERESTING trash. They’ve made some comments around focusing on lieutenant mobs and having them grant more completion percent as well. I would be fine with that in some dungeons.

I think there is way you can balance fewer/challenging trash mob dungeons versus large pull aoe fest dungeons. And honestly I think both should be in the game. It shouldn’t have to be one or the other as long as one isn’t noticeably longer or harder than the other.

The other comment I would make is the dungeons definitely do not need to be longer. No one wants to spend 80 minutes in a dungeons and get zero reward. Which is a real possibility under the current design. I’m all for making them interesting, make the trash interesting, make things take more planning. But I think the time target of 20-35 minutes is a good one.


#19

I played those dungeons, and once you overgeared them you facerolled them and did super speed clears just like we do now.

People cc’d and took their time in mythic 0s when no one had the gear, and just like all previous expacs, they quickly geared up and didn’t need to anymore.

Infested wasn’t slowing things down for competent groups, you know the pulls, you know your job, and ccs are going out as the tank is about to charge. It was frustrating because so many classes don’t have the tools to help, it cascaded so easily if you messed it up, it changed weekly, and it was a constant stressor. Packs took longer because of the nature of how you had to deal with them, but the pace was the same. No one was stopping to strategize before a pull. You do that before the key goes in.


(Varrow) #20

This is also important to remember.