Raid Leading

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
21

I said above that raid leading isn’t all that hard and I stand by it. If you bring confidence, humility, and patience to the table, folks will really gravitate towards that. At the end of the day raiding feels like this big, overwhelming thing to a lot of folks and it doesn’t need to be. They just need someone to get it going.

I would also say that it’s pretty important to have a solid grasp on the fight’s mechanics and be able to articulate it well. That’s a lot less daunting in Vanilla than it is in, say, a Retail setting because Vanilla fights just aren’t that complex. So your idea of starting now before TBC is good, it will help you build some confidence.

Above all else, remember patience. Some folks in this game are real dumpster fires and will try to bring a lot of unnecessary drama to your groups and forget that they are just one person in a group of 40.

Good luck! I look forward to tales of your heroic deeds :slight_smile:

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22

Any specific addons i should use that you know of for loot dis and just keeping track of what people win?

23

To be fair that is this entire forum in a nutshell.
:stuck_out_tongue:

But on topic for what it’s worth since I only do guild stuff save for random bgs, if people agree to the terms when it is made very clear to them and spelled out before they join I see no issue. Sometimes you gotta be that guy to get stuff done.

24

:rofl:

At the end of the day you can do anything you want to, and people will likely agree with it if it means they can raid without having to join a guild. We live in a world where people are willing to throw real life cash around in order to buy priority on equipment that they will then throw away the very next tier, happily giving some of that money to the organizer, and then getting offended when Blizzard said, “Hey, you probably shouldn’t be doing this.” So I think passing up your right to mats in MC is probably not even going to register with them.

People are doing these things, even if you currently aren’t. You might think, “Well I wanna get a piece of that pie!” and that’s certainly something you can do. Nobody is going to stop you. However, you will be judged on some level and if that’s something you’re worried about–be it your server reputation or your own morality–you’ll probably need to take these kinds of things into consideration.

For me, personally, I think taking advantage of people is wrong. So “but they agreed to it” isn’t enough for me.

(Not saying anything about you personally here, Nueces, just responding to that particular point of reasoning)

25

Opportunity cost.
It isn’t taking advantage when a choice is involved.
But again I don’t live the pug life so my judgment in this matter may not be valid.
:wink:

26

Unrelated, let me tell you about this compelling opportunity for you to find spiritual tranquility and universal belonging…

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27

Dude.

Jarl has you recruiting now?
:stuck_out_tongue:

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28

Just HR everything you want like everyone else on Anniversary. It’s the raid meta. Who wants to have competition for items. If you HR it you get it EZ.

29

I think you are being a bit harsh here. HRs are fundamentally not dissimilar to taking a tip for picking a lockbox or creating a portal.

Plus, the market determines the value of goods and services. If organising a PuG raid is as easy as you suggest, then nobody would “pay” the HR to join one.

Do I like with HR culture, first Righteous Orb to tank, tips for healers, etc.? No. But it isn’t “scummy” any more than the entire world is scummy with how everything is monetised these days.

As an aside, as a casual player, other people HR’ing things does make me feel mort comfortable doing content that I’m not experienced with. It makes me feel that my performance doesn’t have to be on-par with everyone else because I don’t have an on-par entitlement to loot. But maybe that’s just me.

30

You’re welcome to that opinion, certainly, but I stand by what I said.

The foundation for thinking that HR is ok is entitlement. The idea that someone brings something to the table that puts them above others and therefore are deserving of preferential treatment is the foundation of what has enabled you, and others, to think that this is ok behaviour. It’s not.

With regards to raid leading, as I’ve said, it’s not that hard, especially in MC. Feeling entitled just because you right-clicked 39 other names and selected invite, or loosely explained a boss fight that most people are expected to know anyway? It’s just not that much work. Anybody can do it, but there’s a lot of social anxiety built up in WoW and a community that has a lot of toxic players. So not everybody feels comfortable doing so and not everybody wants to deal with the nonsense. If you are, does that make you special because you’re a bit more extroverted, experienced, and/or patient than others? No, it doesn’t, and certainly not so special that you’re deserving of loot priority over them.

With regards to tanking and healing, why do they get special priority? Because they’re rare, so it better be worth your time to go on one run over another, you deserve to get compensated. If people want that same special treatment then they should just roll a tank or a healer, right? Hardly… the game is structured so that at end-game you need 1-2 tanks, 8-12 healers, and 26-31 DPS. That 40-man raid group does not divide cleanly into 5-man groups and so there’s a disconnect between the demands of a 5-man group and the demands of a 40-man raiding group. You’re a byproduct of the game’s design but there’s nothing special about you. You don’t deserve anything extra for playing those roles.

Let’s talk about tipping for opening boxes or portals, since you brought it up. You spent the time leveling lock picking, so you deserve the be compensated for your efforts, right? Except you probably got there opening boxes for free before you decided to start charging. You leveled a mage so you deserve tips for making portals or food/water for people, right? You’re clicking a button that activates an ability you learned at a trainer. Do it for your group, for your guild, or just some rando because it helps your fellow gamer out. Doing these things costs you nothing but a few seconds of your time.

This fixation the WoW community has developed with “compensation” is abhorrent. Things that we used to do for each other just to support our community now come with an expectation of compensation and yes, it absolutely is 100% scummy. Our time is absolutely precious to us all, but I think you folks forget that we’re already choosing to spend that time in a video game. If the game isn’t compelling enough for your to play without getting paid for it, then don’t play.

Just because I’m not in a guild with you doesn’t mean you’re not a part of my community. Blizzard is doing their best to blur what community means with their push to megaservers, which is maybe part of the problem. It’s not a good thing. I was brought up to treat people with respect and kindness, without the expectation of something in return. If I’m walking down the street and someone in front of me drops something, I’ll pick it up. I’ll hold the door for others. I’m friendly and say hi to people on the street. Could you imagine if I charged a tip for this? “Hey, I see you’re elderly and have dropped your bag. I’d be more than happy to help you pick it up, but first please tap your credit card here. I’m sure you’ll find my rates reasonable.”

Same goes for dungeon runs. If someone needs a tank or a healer, I’ll go. I don’t need to be compensated for it. I’m playing this game because I genuinely enjoy it. I’ve done these dungeons thousands of times but I still love it. Yea, I could take advantage of the opportunity and charge people, just because I can, but I don’t because it’s scumbag behaviour and I refuse to take advantage of others. If you want to do these things, go ahead. Nobody is stopping you. But don’t sit there and pretend that it’s anything other than what it is. This isn’t a job, it’s a game. Play it or don’t.

If you think that’s harsh, too bad. Be a better person.

31

A person that just spams /2 LFM for Bwl. Then HRs the best 3-4 items is cringe. But I just avoid those runs and usually instantly ignore that person so I don’t have to see their spam in my chat.

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32

yeah i think hring 3-4 items is a bit bizarre. IF i ever would do it, i personally would only hr 1 item… which again in my eyes would nullify any of my SRs since i am not rolling against anyone if it drops. I wouldn’t hr 3-4 things though for the sake of not having to do more runs, i dont think anyone would really join that anyways so haha

33

That’s the worst part they HR 3-4 items and still take the same SRs the rest of the raid gets…

34

Again, I agree with the general thrust and respect your opinion - but you can’t blame Blizzard, megaservers, or anything else.

Firstly, entrepreneurship co-exists with community cohesion. Yes it’s a game not a job but you can’t seriously expect players to farm and give away Black Lotus to random players. To use your analogy, aged care services such as transportation are indeed a business. I wouldn’t expect a random person to charge money for a single act of kindness but I can understand if somebody started doing it at-scale for compensation.

Similarly, I still see acts of kindness every day in WoW - people giving gold to newbies, mages giving free portals, etc. If you ask nicely, most people are happy to oblige. Conversely, to use your analogy, if the old person demanded that you pick up their bag because it’s their right as a member of the community, I wouldn’t be surprised if people kept walking.

Secondly, the market determines the value for goods and services. If what you’re saying is true, you should be able to pop into a 39/40 HR PUG and say “hey guys, I’m going to run the same raid but with no HR”, everyone would leave to join you, and this entire discussion would be a moot point. If anything else happens then your position (that group leaders don’t provide anything) is objectively and measurably wrong.

To clarify, I don’t think your position is harsh - I think you are being harsh to other people.

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35

There’s been an observable shift in player mentality in WoW, amplified by Classic, and so I think something is to blame. I actually think megaservers is a large part of it, it lets people be a lot more anonymous than they used to be, but I can’t really say it’s the only factor.

The fact remains, WoW is not only more transactional than it used to be, players are also more willing to spend IRL money on in-game items and services than they used to in the past.

Of course not, but that’s not really the argument I’m making here. There’s a big difference between going out and spending your time farming black lotus and playing dungeons. You can’t compare the two. The latter especially is something you’d typically want to do anyway, but an opportunity to charge for that presents itself and people take it. Just playing the game has become transactional and people now expect to get something in return instead of just playing.

Again, this is the crux of the matter. We’re moving beyond “just playing the game” and into “playing the game to provide a service to others”. You acknowledge that the game isn’t a job but all subsequent scenarios you propose are from the perspective that it is. Which has become a reality because so many people now treat the game that way. You don’t have to charge to tank a dungeon, but if you can, too many people think “well why shouldn’t I?”

It’s the same with raid leading. People used to primarily do this in the form of guilds, but this is no longer true. I mean, how many scheduled PuG raids are there these days? Doubly so when GDKP was at its height. Yet those raid leaders are opting to not to form established communities because they can lead a pug with items HR’d for compensation instead. If I had a character on the main clusters, I could pop on tonight and lead an MC with no HR and people would absolutely choose to join that over raids that did; however, I’m just one person and so my raid will fill and others will not have any other choice.

WoW used to be a game about community, now it’s a game about transactions. The compensation was intrinsic. Your reward for leading was playing the game, often establishing lasting relationships. That’s still present, but a lot of players have decided this isn’t something to be valued anymore and will take advantage of the opportunity. You know how I feel about when people take advantage of others.

Tough. I’m not here to make you, or anybody else, feel better about exploiting others in a video game. Either be a better human or acknowledge your scummitude and move on.

36

I skim read with intention of responding later but since you have already decided that I - who has never charged for services and routinely gives away free things to make other players happy - am “scum”, I’ll save myself the time.

37

The royal you, sir. If you do not play WoW in this way then these statements do not apply to you. I am strictly speaking to those who feel it’s appropriate to profit off of otherwise normal interactions in WoW.

*EDIT: I don’t really care if you decide you want to internalize this and get offended, but at the very least I felt I should be more clear regarding the target of my ire.

38

Ah, acknowledged.

In summary, I agree with your perspective that the game in general is more transactional than it used to be and I don’t like it, either. I contend that you might be idealising the past somewhat. Even traditional raiding with DKP is transactional inasmuch as there is was an expectation that you would earn something eventually, and RMT is as old as the game itself.

I can’t pinpoint if the balance of cooperation, competition and player agency has actually been tipped to a point of “scummimess”. I don’t see why a well-geared, experienced tank charging for a quick, clean run is any different than that same player grinding mobs for gold. And it doesn’t take away my ability to form friendships and run the dungeon the old-fashioned way with other players.

But we might just have to agree to disagree on whether that threshold has been reached.

39

I’ll accept this. The game and its players have changed in the last 20 years and the foundation of my entire position here is that this isn’t a good thing. That doesn’t change my stance or that I perceive these kinds of behaviours as scummy though.

I suppose it would depend on the guild but I would argue that the intent of DKP wasn’t about compensation, it was about maintaining fairness. In that analogy, it would be the difference between everybody in the raid getting an equal share of DKP for participation vs. raid leaders, tanks, and healers getting a bonus share because of a perception that they are extra special snowflakes because of XYZ reasons. If the former, no problems on my end. If the latter… not so agreeable.

If I understand your premise here correctly, you’re saying that the tank can go solo grind mobs for gold or they can be compensated for the run, allowing everybody to achieve their goals at the same time?

If so, I understand the point you’re trying to make; however, that premise devalues player interactions and puts an emphasis on time spent in this game being transactional… in a much bigger way than what one might consider “standard” (ie, AH). I think the core issue here is that this type of thing might start out with good intentions.

Consider the same outcome but from two different points of view…

>“Hey, can you tank Strat UD for us?”
>“Ah sorry, I can’t, I’m trying to get my epic mount before the next AV weekend and I >still need 200g more.”
>“Well, we’re trying to farm some BiS items. I appreciate that you’re trying to farm too, how about we give you 25g for each run so we can both get what we need?”

… vs …

>“Hey, can you tank Strat UD for us?”
>"Sure thing, but I charge 25g per run.

The foundation of the former is entirely wholesome. The foundation of the latter is entirely transactional.

If all we ever had was the former then I’d have no problem with it, but because the former occurred a couple of times tanks have learned that they can charge. It doesn’t matter if they were going to run that dungeon anyway, they can charge.

Let’s circle this back to the OP and tie it back into my initial response to them. In this case, the OP has expressed their desire to raid anyway. They want items in that raid, so they’ll be looking for opportunities to go regardless of whether or not they’re leading the raid. Taking the opportunity to HR certain items for something they were going to do anyway is why it feels scummy and why I stand by my statement.

It would be an entirely different matter if the OP was known to be capable of raid leading, was requested to raid lead, but had other priorities. In that case it could be considered appropriate for the raid to offer something in exchange for the OP to reprioritize.

At the end of the day it all comes down to motivations. As you said, you can’t pinpoint it, it’s a fuzzy line but by and large the WoW playerbase as a whole tends to be on the wrong side of it these days.

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40

It’s not.
I’ve heard this before.
Totes legit and whatever works since a few of the folk that I’ve conversed with have also admitted to social anxiety. It’s why these groups/raids seem to fill and players seem satisfied with the arrangement. Who am I to judge? Stuff gets done.

I don’t do those kinds of groups/raids so I try not to judge but admit I can’t really see under the hood myself to pronounce it “scummy”.

Glad this topic came up. Thanks, OP. I’ve enjoyed seeing others views of this.

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