FEEDBACK: Protection Warrior Class Changes

Welcome Protection Warriors! There are a number of changes to your talents and talent tree coming in 11.2. We’d like to share our goals for these changes and how we approached them.

Many of Protection Warrior’s talents in each gate provide either key capabilities or extremely powerful bonuses that make those talents “locked in.” As a result, Protection Warrior builds don’t change much in different situations or based on personal preferences.

In 11.2 there are still many key, high power talents in the Protection tree, such as Strategist, Shield Specialization, Shield Charge, and Shield Wall. But in this version of the tree, we tried to ensure you have some points left after taking the “must take” talents in each gate. We did this by rearranging the tree to remove some bottleneck talents, making Challenging Shout baseline, and reducing the power of some current “must take” talents so they’re at a comparable power level with optional or utility talents.

The best examples of this type of power equalization are Enduring Alacrity and Focused Vigor, which granted lots of defensiveness and stats. The new versions are still broadly useful boosts, but more specific alternatives are more competitive with their power now. Where talents lost power in this way, we gave it back in other talents or abilities so your overall power level remains similar.

Once we freed up some flexibility to choose more talents based on situation and personal preference, we wanted to add some options to let you lean in to different aspects of your kit or customize your defenses . You can opt for more physical or magic damage reduction based on the needs of an encounter. There’s a more accessible suite of Execute talents if you want to emphasize that source of damage. Tough as Nails is a more useful tool for holding AOE threat. Bloodborne is easier to take if you’re looking for more passive damage. And so on.

We are excited to see the builds you try and will be watching this thread for feedback!

0 dawnbreakers will be timed by a prot warrior because of spell block being removed.

12 Likes

im excited to see how well some of these under utilized talents will perform. just wish we had more aoe stops so we can compete with dh’s in keys. that or mobs stop spam casting

3 Likes

Please reconsider removing spell block. Or if you have to remove it, please reconsider changing your reason to something that is convincing.

15 Likes

Please make spell block baseline

17 Likes

Removing Spell Block does not sound like a very good idea in an M+ season that features Dawnbreaker and Floodgate.

16 Likes

Personal Experience: Tanked in M+ this season to 3k, and in the past have been a tank for guilds in mythic content. While not my main spec, I have decent amount of exprience playing Prot.

Haven’t had a chance to jump on to the PTR, but have had a bit of time playing around with WoWhead’s talent calculator, but the initial good parts about this rework are really good.

Talent Placements

You actually feel like you have enough talent points to make some choices based on Hero Talents or personal preference. Talents like Thunderlord which felt necessary to keep Demoralizing Shout uptime high, are in spots where you cannot pass them, but are early enough that it doesn’t mess with your talent choices too much. Disrupting shout is actually in a place where I don’t feel like I’m sacrificing critical talents for good utility. All and all, good changes at re-arranging the talent tree.

New Talents

Most of them seem good, I like pushing Prot to get more offensive with execute talents. Heavy Handed and Red Right Hand, will help reward good rage managment. Additionally new things like Whirling Blade, help a lot for players that want to cut down on keybinds. However a few of the new ones do have me scratching my head.

  • Armor specialization feels a bit like a trap talent since Warriors are already plenty good at mitigating Physical Damage.

  • Hunker Down vs Spellbreaker, feels also like a talent choice thats a no-brainer. Spellbreaker having a random effect, and a low one at that, makes it so that its not really reliable, unless there’s suddenly a lot of enemies all applying magic damage to you at once (EG: Pulling too many Corridor Creepers in Darkflame Cleft). If you’re taking one of these, its almost always Hunker Down. That being said, from a flavor point of view its cool to see Spell Breakers fall into the Warrior class theme.

The Removal of Spell Block

While a lot of these changes are fantastic to see, the removal of Spell Block leaves me very concerned (and apparently others too). While the knowledge of what could be a bit arcane in knowing what was spell blockable and what wasn’t, it was an important tool for the Warriors who did know how to utilize it. Giving us a second large weakness (our first being bleed damage), and not having many self-healing tools makes this a very large concern.

Additionally our Protection Paladin counter part, still keeps the ability to block spells. If its arcane for Prot Warrior, a random blocked spell with no input must be eldritch. If this is an issue, it should be addressed across both the shield tanks and the encounters we experience, not just removed for one class and the other class keeps theirs. I’d much rather see some UI change that lets players know you could spell block something (Paladins would also benefit form this), rather then the removal of a powerful tool.

Overall a solid start, but some concerns still exist.

10 Likes

Removing spell block is a mistake and will probably send us right back to the community perception that Prot Warriors are weak to magic.

It’s important to remember Prot Warrior is the tank with the least amount of self-sustain. Spell block worked because it fit the non-self-sustain but mitigation-centric role.

It’s also important that we highlight the fact that Spell Block as it in live is wildly inconsistent: it does NOT work on all magic attacks or DoTs. It works on some of them, with the number of blockable spells being higher the later into TWW, and lesser the earlier into DF. Notable examples, the first three being from DF and the last three being from TWW:

  • it worked on Sarkareth’s bomb dot (Void Claws) to the point where a Prot Warrior could basically solo tank it on lower difficulties
  • It did not work on Zskarn’s auto attack (Searing Claws) fire dot at all.
  • It did not work on Forgotten Experiment’s auto attack dot (Infused Strikes) at all.
  • It does not work on Floodgate’s Big M.O.M.M.A.'s tank buster (called Electrocrush) dot portion but does on the initial hit of the cast, while it doesnt work at all on Geezle Gigawatt’s tank buster (called Thunder Punch).
  • It does work on Motherload’s Rixxa auto attacks (in comparison this boss DESTROYED US in BFA while in TWW we’re way better positioned to deal with her thanks to Spell Block and Spell Reflection’s magic damage reduction).
  • This goes hand in hand with Motherload’s Mogul Razdunk and Workshop’s King Mechagon (both of which are reflectable for damage as well).

THAT BEING SAID, I understand the reasoning behind removing it: i get that you want to make it simpler for non-experienced players. Spell Block was complicated, required us to make a sheet to track what was spell-blockable or not due to its inconsistency problems so it required knowledge and preparation.

As far as the new talents go… I don’t think the replacements are good at all, here’s my reasoning:

  • Spellbreaker being wildly RNG at 4% is just no bueno. At that point it’s a dead talent. Nobody wants to deal with a very minimal RNG chance of being spell immune. We like control, we like that we can press a cd when we need it.
  • Hunker Down is… fine? But compare Prot Warrior to other tank classes and we’re still as a disadvantage with it considering what I mentioned above about self-sustain. We will end up having less magic mitigation than tanks that deal with damage by self-sustaining. This doesn’t really add up.

My suggestions are the following and only if you want to go forward with the removal of Spell Block:

  • Give us Spell Block back (ok I tried, but hoping this is in consideration still) and remove both of those two talents.
  • Spellbreaker: Make it be a 40% chance to have 40% magic mitigation WITHOUT block up, and a 60% chance to have 40% magic mitigation WITH block up. And make sure it works ON EVERYTHING MAGIC.
  • Hunker down: Keep the same mitigation numbers, but add a way to self-sustain similar to a weaker form of Death Strike after magic hits - all while using Spell Reflection of course, and make it so that it’s properly tuned so that we don’t end up becoming BDKs or VDHs on self-sustain.
  • Hunker Down (again): Consider the Legion artifact trait Reflective Plating and bake that in somehow with a slightly higher damage reduction baked in.

Additionally:

  • Devastator SHOULD be baseline.
  • Last Stand is very poorly positioned. It’s also a severely outdated ability that needs Bolster to be actually worth pressing, and we dont play Bolster unless we have some interaction with LS as it is…
  • Give us a proper answer to bleeds and/or physical DoTs. Other tanks can just self-sustain them, we cannot. Dwarf shouldn’t be the only option, and given that meld is now a potion, we should have an answer for these types of attacks.
  • FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF RALLYING CRY IN GROUP SETTINGS
  • Speaking of Legion artifact tratits: Safeguard would make Intervene relevant again.
23 Likes

We’re going to need a better replacement for spellblock then what it is currently.
(Maybe part of mastery)
The new talent should be baseline with a higher proc rate at a minimum.
FTF and the new def stance talents are forced and in bad spots.

Devastator should be baseline and taking rend as a talent is weird when thunderclap applies it.

Overall I like the talent tree much more, but there are still too many forced nothing talents you have to take to get to better stuff.

2 Likes

Unfortunately, the decisions made to re-arrange the talent tree do nothing for the overall issue (mythic+ focused) - there are too many “mandatory” talents to take. The tree re-design itself is also incredibly awkward. This has to be the single most instances of one-off branches in a Specialization Tree (nodes that only connect to a singular node and do not connect to anything else, ie: Hunker Down/Spellbreaker choice node) - there are 12 branch nodes, excluding the capstones at the end of the tree.

The design choices feel so uninspired for talents that makes me wonder if certain talents were created solely for the sake of “Oh, we need to put something here.” [See: Armor Specialization]. Other talents have arguably some of the worst design I think I’ve seen in World of Warcraft, period - namely, the newly introduced Spellbreaker.

Spellbreaker is a chance to proc spell damage negation (crucial since wording implies you still take DoT effects of the spell instead of being fully immune). One of the core philosophies of WoW defensive design was for players to have control over their defensives (tier set bonuses were excluded from this discussion when you had it because “they were temporary”). A damage negation on a per-proc basis rather than something the player actively chooses to press is absolutely horrendous design. Imagine telling a Death Knight player that their free AMS from Rider of the Apocalypse used their cooldown of AMS. It’s absurd as a comparison because the talent itself you’ve introduced is frankly absurd. It is one thing for a player to feel bad about a button because it’s gone (Spell Block was incredibly strong and hard to balance but honestly outside perception-wise… You should’ve tried harder to balance it)… but it’s another thing for a player to actively choose to talent this abomination of a talent and then not watch it proc when they need it most. Suddenly the player is going “well that would’ve been nice if I could’ve pressed it” while looking at their death log. RNG has no place in defensives when it comes to Talent Trees. Rework or remove this talent.

Last Stand is an abomination of an ability tethered to the Classic Days. It’s literally a mediocre health potion on a 3-minute cd. Having to commit talents to try and improve this dated ability just makes no sense whatsoever - the only reason it’s even considered pathed to at this current moment is because you can’t get Thunderlord without it. I genuinely would not be surprised to see talent builds forgo the left side of the tree and ignore even Thunderlord in favor of consistent, boring mitigation talents because they can free up an extra point by not taking Last Stand. Redesign Last Stand with either Unnerving Focus or Bolster half-or-full baked in (like you did with the Shield Charge talents!) to even make it a worthwhile investment.

The Dev Notes state that “Protection Warrior builds don’t change much in different situations or based on personal preferences” - I think you missed the mark entirely and need to refocus your efforts to see what talents were actively being decided against each other in the first place and what were mandatory and then question “Why were these considered mandatory?” It is disheartening to see effort put in and nothing actually changed.

10 Likes

Damage nerfed even if you pick all damage talents - revenge nerfed for the nth time.

Next Tier bonus gives 100% extra bleed damage, all new fun execute talents added but Sudden Death is worse than Bloodborne, when Sudden Death should be the most attractive part of this new execute focused talent shift without feeling punished for taking the fun talent to do less damage.

You lose so much damage for picking the tanky talents, high keys you will do 0 damage due to tanky talent requirement, why even play warrior at that point - can’t wait to get 1 shot by every magic move, but its ok my key is resil eventually I will hit the 4% damage immune on the magic move that kills me…

Also thunderlord is a dead talent because last stand is useless

7 Likes

Playing around with prot’s new tree is not fun at all, you have way too many dead end nodes on your way down to the capstones which you can pick very little of.
Then there’s the weird gating and layout going into the capatones which also has these weird dead ends which dont really allow you to pick synergistic talents.

Also not prot specific but what in the world (of warcraft) are those colour palettes on the pve tier? They’re awful colour palettes with the only 2 good looking sets being locked behind pvp, making the pve sets dead on arrival in terms of xmog.

4 Likes

Lust for warriors… Iconic as a first tank with lust. Go do things, make it happen please.

7 Likes

Spell Block removal feels like a step backwards. A massive defensive against magic damage being removed and replaced with nothing seems like a poor decision. Warrior struggle against rot damage and don’t have a major defensive CD to address magic damage. An additional 10% magic reduction on Spell Reflect and a RNG talent that no one will take is not a suitable replacement.

This is a rough nerf for m+ and warriors are already suffering in m+ due to the lack of utility

11 Likes

I’m not convinced the removal of Spell Block is a good idea. Firstly, outside of balancing concerns, I disagree with eliminating active defensive gameplay to replace it with passives. This shifts the decision making around survivability away from the actual moment-to-moment gameplay of managing defensives to meet your needs during an encounter into the choices of passive defensive or stat nodes when making your build, or away from the player entirely if they just grab a build off a guide.

The rationale given that it required too much specialized knowledge to know when it would or wouldn’t work runs afoul of Paladin’s Holy Shield blocking spells under the same logic, or abilities like Spell Reflection or AMS for Death Knights require the same specialized knowledge to memorize which particular spells are deflected, or reflected. Arguably the titular “reflect” part of Spell Reflection is even more rare and without in-game signal, requiring memorizing the player-made spreadsheet from experimentation, or usage of a weakaura to signal when it should be used. I understand the focus on consistency, the DK segment called out the frustration of grip-immune adds, but using this as the standard for removal raises questions about the aforementioned spreadsheet showing the current raid has a total of TWO spells that work with Spell Reflect’s main function, and both are deflects. Also, the immobilizing aspect of Demolish is supposed to come with immunity to forced movement, but I seem to be pushed out of melee range more often than I resist it in the same expansion as it was introduced.

The new talent Spellbreaker has interesting theme, but functionally steps on the toes of what Spell Reflect is supposed to do, and feels weird that in the same patch DK is having the chance stripped out of their hero talents to make them consistent and reliable, warriors are getting a defensive node that only works 4% of the time. If the goal was to address the need for spreadsheets again or button bloat then why not give it the same treatment as Worthy Sacrifice on Paladins, or Whirling Blade/Ravager in this same update with a choice node?

On the talent tree as a whole, the stated goal of increasing flexibility by breaking up the vital “locked in” nodes, feel like it has instead meant you are now locked in to even more nodes trying to pick up all the pieces of what you had before. If you went solely for the defensive and resource nodes you run out of points before you even start thinking about utility or damage.

Considering player motivation this may make builds feel even more restrictive, since the prior tree’s sense of “grab the vital ones and play around in between with what little you have less” is replaced with “ Guess how much you need to live this content, if you guess wrong you have to zone out and respec” which kinda incentivizes the risk-averse answer of “I guess I’ll dump every point into living and live with having anemic damage and low utility, until I learn exactly how much % tankiness I need for every encounter” which just introduces a new form of spreadsheet-like memorization.

Edit: Gave it a few days to feel it out, I think the intent is that magic damage will become the thing that actually makes our health bar move, and that we heal back through Fueled by Violence. I still dont really agree with this system as there isn’t any gameplay around it beyond making sure your bleeds are out, and this renders only one hero talent viable with the colossus tier bonus tying into bleed healing while mountain thane’s doesnt while introducing new must-take nodes. If this is the intent, I would rather Prot Warrior get something in the style of Fury’s Enraged Regeneration to temporarily give a massive boost to leech or something, so there is something different than our normal rotation to do about incoming spell damage (assuming our remaining defensives are enough to cover not being killed outright in addition to what we already use them for)

regarding community perception, Spell Block was introduced fairly recently as a saving grace at a time when Prot Warr was seen as incredibly weak against any kind of spell damage especially in dungeons like Halls of Atonement. In the absence of seeing internal dev tools assessment of how that has changed, I don’t think the playstyle and feel of Prot Warrior has changed enough since shadowlands to make this not feel like going straight back to tissue-paper vulnerability against magic. Especially in a tier that brings back a dungeon that demonstrated that weakness keenly when it was new, and with a raid that at first glance features an awful lot of pure-magic tankbusters.

Edit 2: I also want to highlight that specialized knowledge such as what spells are blockable/reflectable, or can be prevented with AMS creates a very fun part of the early season when the tanks are sharing secret little tricks about a huge reflect you can do on a boss or a mechanic that can be bypassed and the design goal that this is bad and it is preferable that tanking be as straight-forward and nuance-less as possible feels like it pushes tanking to be as bland/boring and repetitious as possible. If the answer to every problem is “just press shield wall”, and if it comes too frequently, “beg the healer for an external” there’s not a lot of stuff to talk about, and the changes posted already remove “actually you can handle that whole thing with spell block” while threatening removing all the others.

5 Likes

Why do you like making classes I like into poop ):<?

First it was feral druid in bfa
Second it was disc priest in bfa s4 and shadowlands.
Then it was resto druid in season 1.
I started to like prot warrior and they’re now removing spell block??

Maybe I’m just really unlucky in choosing what I like?
I wish I could experience being wanted in game.

1 Like

I was going to provide some feedback but I think the first few people nailed it.

This was a wild change for Warriors. Lot of dead nodes once again. Spell Block only blocks some stuff. Its not overpowered by any stretch. Removing it to replace with a massively wild RNG based talent is counter-intuitive. We are already the LEAST self sustaining class in the game…especially tank.

Please take a better look at these changes. That is all.

5 Likes

I only have a few comments so far.

Thank you for making Tough as Nails and Fueled by Violence more viable. My only complaint there is having to path through Thunderlord to get Tough as Nails. But thats a small issue. Definitely now feel like i have to make tough choices of which cool stuff to get. (By the way, for the 10 minutes i poked around on PTR before i got lagged out, Tough as Nails wasn’t seeming to Crit from block crits.)

I don’t do high end M+, so never really used Spell Block, so I’m happy enough with Hunker Down as an on demand magic DR. I prefer that short CD short duration DR for magic tank busters.

Since there’s some rework going on, I’d like to make one wishlist suggestion. Would love if there was a choice-node on Devastator that gave a playstyle that still used Devastate. Something like “Devastate now has a 3sec cd, 2 charges. Does 100% increased damage and has double the chance to reset Shield Slam’s CD”. Also wouldnt mind seeing it interact with Mountain Thane lightning procs. While Devastator has been basically a mandatory talent with Mtn Thane, you could technically skip it before. Now its a required path. Just would like to see a viable manual Devastate option.

Anyways, thanks!

just cant stop taking L’s huh.
spell block removal is massive would have instead like to see it actually work on magical dots.

basically by how you have changed the tree you have made it so we are foced to choose between our cheat death and ravager. thats a big feels bad moment.

i just dont get most of the tank changes in general. removing abom limb like holy god almighty are you all deaf to your playerbase.

1 Like

3K Warrior, KSH every season since it’s introduction.

We’re going into season 3 with two less defensives. Spell Block, gone. Last Stand is optional now and we’re not going to use it, It’s GARBAGE. Our >8 pull damage has been nerfed, with 0 utility to compensate. I’d list positives but I’m worried those would also get gutted.

Spell Block is crucial as a defensive tool when our main weakness is Magic. Replacing it with a 4% chance passive proc, with 0 control. With frankly, insulting reasoning. You don’t think we know how to tank, how to properly use a defensive? What?

I don’t know what’s with this idea that Last Stand is a decent button to press. Killing Spree is getting removed this patch. Do the same for Last Stand. Oh I know, here’s an idea:

REPLACE IT WITH SPELL BLOCK.

Awful. Awful. Awful changes. Please don’t let it go to live.

11 Likes