Feedback: Rogue Updates

[Kaivax]

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Rogues in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Thank You

Before we continue testing The War Within, we’d like to take a moment to thank everyone who read and responded to the Hero Talent previews we posted over the last few months.

Looking to the Alpha

In this first Alpha build, every single class has at least one new Hero Talent tree available for testing, with the rest coming in the following weeks. We’re asking testers to initially keep several things in mind:

• There are UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
• Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI)
• New spell visuals and audio for several new Hero Talent trees are still a work in progress. Many trees are using placeholder assets for now that will be updated over the course of Alpha.
• There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus right now that we are prioritizing over other concerns such as tuning or generic class updates/maintenance:

• Finish building the remainder of the Hero Talent trees that are not yet available.
• Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

With the Alpha build being playable and all of the discussion that will occur around the flood of data, we wanted to reiterate that the responses to our blog previews were highly valuable. The feedback we received allowed us to make some early improvements or revisions while we didn’t yet have a public test environment. It allowed us to take some big early swings on certain trees, and then react to early feedback quickly.

Going forward, we aren’t planning to publish any additional Hero Talent previews in blog form, since we’ll add the remaining classes to the Alpha as soon as they reach their ready-to-test state.

Working from Feedback

Several Hero Talent trees have received changes after reading feedback to the blog posts. Some of these were tuning changes to ensure that the Hero Talent tree felt competitive, while others were significant design changes. The feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Going into Alpha, we feel good about the shape of the Hero Talent tree designs. Keeping a consistent number of utility and defensives nodes across all trees, having parity between number of choice nodes, and the overall structure of the trees are things we’re confident in.

We’re also working on tweaking some core class designs as well. In some cases, it was necessary to make adjustments to the class or specialization talent trees before significant work was done on a Hero Talent tree. In other cases, we did work seeking to improve base class talent tree designs.

Alpha Feedback

Now that we’re in Alpha, we’re looking for feedback on how it feels to playtest these trees. We’re specifically curious about:

• Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree.
• Hero Talents that create frustrating or unsatisfying gameplay or rotations for your spec.
• Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.

Throughput comparisons of Hero Talent trees are helpful, but we’re more interested in gameplay, feel, and choice feedback at this stage. Also, when possible, we appreciate it when you focus posts or articles on a single spec and Hero Talent tree, rather than combining feedback about multiple issues.

Again, Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback on Hero Talent trees and are very excited for you to see everything else we’re working on. Thank you!

– The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

[Eridian-tichondrius]

Trickster: A love letter to the old ways in a very Modern Rogue

• This is intended as feedback based off Alpha gameplay as a long time Subtlety rogue with the intent on how Trickster feels during various combat engagements, tools available aka utility, and a cumulative approach. (spoilers: the playstyle is fun, engaging, and requires thinking). It thematically fits and captures a Thief style play which I love and closes the gap a little bit akin to the old days while also creating interesting burst moments with Coup De Grace (capstone talent discussed).
• This write up is so that people without alpha can visualize what is occurring and a sense of how it is playing out instead of unnecessary bashing. This write up also serves to thank the developers for working hard on making something rogues may enjoy based on this playstyle as a whole picture (seeing the forest versus looking at the trees).
• I’m a very passionate and dedicated Subtlety rogue and I refuse to play anything else as this is all I have cared about since I started in late TBC / Early Wrath when I joined. I adore this tree as it marries the past with the present when you PLAY it instead of reading it. I encourage other rogues to look at it from an open mind instead of looking for silly gimmicks.

Terms and Keywords:

• Unseen Blade = UB, Secret Technique = ST, Shadowdust = Prep, Killing Spree = KS, Fazed = F, Flicker Strike = [FS], Flawless Form = FF, Restless Blades = RB, Escalating Blade = EB, Float like a butterfly = [FB], Internal Cool Down = ICD, Player Vs Player = PVP, Player vs Enemy = PVE, Nimble Flurry = NF, Surprising Strikes = SS, Echoing Reprimand ER, Goremaw’s Bite= GB , Sepsis = S, Don’t Be Suspicious = DBS, So Tricky = SoT,

Unseen Blade [UB]

• Primarily Feint activated instead of adding a new ability to our kit which would further pack Shadow Dance. Many others express how loading more into dance is not great and bridging the gap of the old days where Subtlety did some damage out of it instead of being completely reliant on Shadow Dance. I believe this along with the other triggers, does a solid job at accelerating interactions to get it to hit when you need it. Feint as others have spoken of, being a defensive primarily in the past and now with a offensive trigger at first glance seemed alright but after playing alpha feels completely fine. If anything, another trigger for UB could be added if the developers see that as necessary. After playing it a good bit, it felt easy to get rolling and Fazed offers different interactions which will be covered in a bit.
  Unseen blade interactions triggers

1. Feint (primary trigger)
2. Thousand cuts/ Flickerstrike (secondary triggers)

**Unseen Blade [UB] interaction with Thousand Cuts talent [TC] vs Training Dummy (rough example for illustrative purposes) **

• I saw anywhere of 3-4 triggers of UB without pressing feint due to TC. The trials were performed on a dummy just for data on TC. Assuming that FS behaves the same, a rogue can use at their discretion to trigger Feint for an initial stack and then 1 during an aoe event (depends on what all truly qualifies as an aoe attack that is listed) example being cleave attacks or attacks like shadowfury / Scorch and abilities that are multi target such as Fist of Fury or in pve with boss/ adds that do conical attacks to see if it registers (intended vs not intended) vs the Evasion aspect able to trigger from those events as well. Respectively, it still guarantees at least 1 trigger from either of those and will likely be tuned to perform accordingly. The table didn’t load correctly for accuracy but Mean = 7 PPM (3.5 ppm), 100 trials, Max = 11, Min = 6, Median = 7. This suggests it will reasonably proc during important events over time.

• Fighting actual enemies saw similar interactions where usually UB procced within the first few blows without using Feint. Stacks felt appropriately gained through TS and work similarly but through defensive reactions through Feint duration taking a blow [FS], or dodging during [FS] (discussed below).

Fazed [F]
How Fazed works [F]

• While UB is activated through one of the triggers, it will Faze the target and cause the rogue to deal 5% more damage. It feels as hemorrhage debuffing during Cataclysm (but with a 15 sec cd but with a 5% debuff) that was a great and interesting way to bring that back as Subtlety has been absolutely needing to marry the past with the present in more ways.
• It effects ALL rogue damage which is great and allows for build flexibility with that in mind which is a big win. SS from Fazed and Mastery amps from UB feel good to gain. Waiting to get into our next big Shadow Dance feels impactful instead of dreadful as [SS] / [UB] / [FF] help bring up those dreadful lows which have plagued us since Legion packing it all into Shadow Dance.
• Depending on how a person builds, amps through the specialization tree emphasize different strengths. The 5% helps bridge the gap a little and feels meaningful due to other talents also having supplemental effects which are solid.

Surprising Strikes [SS]

• While Fazed is active, makes generators shine more akin to the past. It can provide some decent backstab / Gloomblade (GB) hits if a rogue chooses to talent into it (sorely missed and heavily talked about over the past few expansions among the forums). This has a lot of synergy with Sepsis, Goremaw’s Bite, and Echoing Reprimand concerning special attacks and packs a punch. I really appreciate this as Subtlety always historically had some mean backstabs and ambushes, with the multiple triggers it can help bridge the gap a little and have some meaningful damage through specific interactions with F/ CC/ FF. A lot of us really enjoy generators and this tree has something for everyone. Backstab/ Gloomblade, and Shadowstrike are valued tools and talents should reflect that moving forward which has been beautifully done in Dragon Flight and this tree accents that further in The War Within instead of encouraging very limited styles. (big win)

Devious Distractions

• Simple and works well while emphasizing strong CDs (ST / KS) and accents NF and a rogue’s choice of other nodes to put the punch in those CDs even more or use that time to extend Fazed depending on how they want to operate. Nothing to sleep on where we need to see the full picture of how this all works well as it certainly does. This pairs well with Smoke / Mirrors for a small defense upgrade node while Fazed is active.
  Flicker Strike [FS]

• Upon activation of Feint or taking aoe damage while feint is active grants a second stack of EB (1x per 5 seconds during feint). Evasion grants 1 stack of EB with an ICD of 5 seconds (2 total possible to gain).
  Thousand Cuts [TC] vs Flicker Strike [FS]

• TC allows procs that occasionally occur (avg 3.5 per 30seconds) by auto attacks.

• FC allows for 1 stack of EC if hit with an Area of Effect (AOE) attack or 2 stacks throughout the duration of Evasion.

• [Prep] and [RB] are the main synergists when selecting this talent to help get a [CDG] up quickly along with the

• [+] Both can serve as a bonus during skill shot windows where the rogue needs to be mindful of CDs and encourages resource management.

• [+] great precise and quick feeling on the animation, deterministic way to build up a CDG hit,

• If the rogue IS NOT careful of spacing will break CC in pvp / dungeons as it IS an attack. TC does not offer control, however, provides a risk vs reward.

• The rogue will be limited to Feint when Evasion is down if not talented into TC. Feint activation as others have echoed in the Official Rogue forums have echoed a lot aren’t enthusiastic about using a primarily defense to turn into a tool for offense. After playing it on alpha, I can see that however we have 2 charges on a 15sec CD (good thing) with CDR for both specs where the rogue needs to maturely determine a space for using it if not talented into TC (Design Risk vs Reward presents itself).

• The Risk: If spacing isn’t mindful in close encounters that a hard CC such as Cheap shot/ Kidney shot are the rogue’s tools where Gouge/Blind/Sap will break much like other things in pvp with the large amount of poor awareness others show usually for a rogue’s cc to make an opportune moment really count.

• Reward: Additional stacks of [EB] sooner than anticipated can be prepared for and thoughtfully utilized for the next hard hitting [CDG].

• I don’t personally have a problem with how things are as is as TC is obvious to be offensive use and FS is a reward for defensive use without allowing for things to be too frequent while having high impact when they do occur (CDG in mind).

• The rogue needs to consider what can happen and whether they deem it necessary on the Risk vs Reward scale here. Either way, the rogue will deterministically build those stacks for the pay off during a burst moment while also allowing for higher fazed moments to bring the very poor lows as a Subtlety rogue up a little while waiting for our next Shadow Dance. (big win). Outlaw due to RB will have it more frequently depending on engagement per the natural ebb (good thing).
  o Request: Possible additional trigger if the development team is willing to as they deem fair and balanced without creating a “1 shot” paradigm. CDG is at a good spot where 2 per burst cycle can occur.
  o Both the choices have their place between [TC / FS] where it doesn’t “need” to change as it felt smooth where us rogues should consider risk vs reward and the gameplay associated. FS doesn’t feel behind TC and the triggers are different to encourage all talents and gameplay involved without scaling out of hand for EB interactions. I didn’t feel there was a problem with that and found it fun while positively challenging to figure out how I wanted to customize in my own style regarding specialization talents as a Subtlety rogue.

Flawless Form [FF]
Triggers of FF:

• 1.Secret Technique / Killing Spree
• 2.Unseen blade interactions

How FF works:

• Grants stack of 4.9% mastery per ST/ KS used or per UB trigger. Stacks can overlap and refresh the duration. If the target id distracted by Fazed, then the rogue gains 5 more stacks when they use CDG. With some luck you can land at pretty good stacks and gain 30-40% mastery during that time. A simple talent while not being disruptive to the rogue’s choices and benefits ALL builds.
• Having nimble flurry (NF) unlocked quickly provides ST and KS to have 10% increased damage, and more frequently due to both Subtlety and Outlaw maintain CDR on those key abilities also increases frequency of those attacks and Fazed debuff as well as the mastery hits. If a rogue chains together talents such as Cloud Cover + Elaborate Twirl (extends FF by 2 seconds for 7 seconds total) and uses feint, it gets pretty compounding and pays out strongly.

Cloud Cover [CC]

• What it does: [CC] Creates a thick smoke screen similar to Smoke Bomb in the old days where it was usable in all combat. This talent does NOT act as an LOS interference like the Legion to Present pvp version of Smoke Bomb.
• This is about a 12-yard range cover that causes all attacks you deal to any enemy within the cloud to apply Fazed [F]. The target takes 5% more damage from the rogue.
• The talent feels good as you can swap in case of priority targets to accelerate the process for a rogue and gain further stacks of FF to increase the mastery further and deliver some nasty hits which feels good. The rogue has control over what they want to do. The 90 sec cd did not bother me at all and was fun to play around with as someone who uses distract every expansion for various reasons even in dungeons. (ex: stopping an incoming patrol before they add frustration to the keystone).
• It replaces distract and can be used while a target is in combat unlike distract (It IS displayed in the tooltip of distract when talented). It’s a great talent that rewards the rogue for planning and adapting while bringing back beloved smoke bomb in a new way.

No Scruples [NS]

• NS is pretty nasty when considering 10% critical strike chance and didn’t feel behind CC. This works well when you want on demand burst where previously in DF it felt rough sometimes when 1 part of Eviscerate crits and the shadow part doesn’t. Outlaw has an affinity for critical strike and friends tell me that they are pretty happy with that.
• I enjoy this node as it is competitive while not making one superior over the other. I have a personal preference for CC but testing both has been a lot of fun for various reasons. Ex: More critical hits during a Shadow dance due to this being up versus CC providing me a way to forcefully activate fazed on multiple targets while not expending a charge of feint depending on the situation at hand (emphasized decision making of the rogue which I really like).

Don’t Be Suspicious vs So Tricky [DBS vs SoT)

• SoT is nice for rogues that don’t often press Tricks of the Trade or for chain pulling and is still useful and not to be discounted.
• DBS feels good as a decision-making tool where blind and shroud got a small but meaningful CDR to help accelerate things depending on what is needed. Good talents without serious impact that would alter or “cheese” things.

Coup De Grace

• This talent is wicked, It has a very cool flurry of slashes that feel satisfying as the animation and the blow from it lives up to the name (a deathblow / mercy kill). It grants 5 stacks of FF as previously discussed and can be chained well with other abilities. While Death From Above has been missed, I actually really like this way more instead of losing control of my character with a delay. Definitely would like to see this ability stick as is instead of adding another button in the future. This ability is great that it evolves Eviscerate and Black Powder into a new attack instead of flooding us with more cool downs. We are able to build it steadily, no crazy mini game to play, the buff Escalating Blade (precursor to CDG as a requirement) builds at a moderate cadence and feels impactful while planning instead of another annoying “1 shot” focused talent where Subtlety often gets put in time out for. It is satisfying for Outlaw as it upgrades into a big Dispatch that is equally effective.
• Side note: DFA was buffed to be a big hit again (40%) in this current alpha and it also feels like a satisfying hit instead of a way to avoid Crowd control effects.

Conclusion:

• Trickster is fluid, fast, and lots of toys that wonderfully pull inspiration as an option from the past to create a modern style of old rogue exist in our world. We have control over a lot of what happens save a few concerns that were discussed while not being restrictive or limiting. While some may disagree with me, I really and truly heartfeltly enjoy this tree as a rogue who likes to combine all sources of damage instead of finishers only.
• Generators feel impactful as someone who really loves the Gloomblade and Lingering Shadow route for big backstabs to hold me over until the next shadow dance. I really dig the crunch it throws on special attacks like Goremaw’s Bite and Sepsis as each tick did get harder and the final poison blast from Sepsis did considerably more damage due to talents like lethality and Surprising Strikes in addition to the new crit gems. It didn’t scale wildly out of control or feel at any point that some ridiculous interactions would occur. It encourages planning, precision, and turning the tide on enemies. I think the hero talent tree was well done and I have had a lot of fun slamming with it on alpha. I would like to encourage the community to think for themselves and unplug from number crunching for a moment as the developers said all the trees will be tightly tuned and they will be watching. The only suggestion I would request is a look at adding another trigger to Unseen Blade as the developers deem it fair and truly reasonable. This playstyle is quick, engaging, and impactful across the board. As a player who has been a rogue since I came into the game starting at the end of TBC / WOTLK and I do absolutely nothing else other than Subtlety it means a lot that all styles were thought of in this tree and all abilities get to shine instead of fixation upon one aspect of what has made Subtlety great over the years. Joining the past with the present in various small but weighted ways depending on how you build is a big win. Subtlety is more than just Shadow Dance. I really dig everything going on here and the current tools offered. Thank you and I look forward to further testing, I apologize if this was long but I wanted to illustrate how it feels and the cool interactions that were made. Definitely enjoyed this Hero talent tree and playstyle.