Feedback: Demon Hunter Updates

[Kaivax]

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Demon Hunters in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Thank You

Before we continue testing The War Within, we’d like to take a moment to thank everyone who read and responded to the Hero Talent previews we posted over the last few months.

Looking to the Alpha

In this first Alpha build, every single class has at least one new Hero Talent tree available for testing, with the rest coming in the following weeks. We’re asking testers to initially keep several things in mind:

• There are UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
• Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI)
• New spell visuals and audio for several new Hero Talent trees are still a work in progress. Many trees are using placeholder assets for now that will be updated over the course of Alpha.
• There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus right now that we are prioritizing over other concerns such as tuning or generic class updates/maintenance:

• Finish building the remainder of the Hero Talent trees that are not yet available.
• Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

With the Alpha build being playable and all of the discussion that will occur around the flood of data, we wanted to reiterate that the responses to our blog previews were highly valuable. The feedback we received allowed us to make some early improvements or revisions while we didn’t yet have a public test environment. It allowed us to take some big early swings on certain trees, and then react to early feedback quickly.

Going forward, we aren’t planning to publish any additional Hero Talent previews in blog form, since we’ll add the remaining classes to the Alpha as soon as they reach their ready-to-test state.

Working from Feedback

Several Hero Talent trees have received changes after reading feedback to the blog posts. Some of these were tuning changes to ensure that the Hero Talent tree felt competitive, while others were significant design changes. The feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Going into Alpha, we feel good about the shape of the Hero Talent tree designs. Keeping a consistent number of utility and defensives nodes across all trees, having parity between number of choice nodes, and the overall structure of the trees are things we’re confident in.

We’re also working on tweaking some core class designs as well. In some cases, it was necessary to make adjustments to the class or specialization talent trees before significant work was done on a Hero Talent tree. In other cases, we did work seeking to improve base class talent tree designs.

Alpha Feedback

Now that we’re in Alpha, we’re looking for feedback on how it feels to playtest these trees. We’re specifically curious about:

• Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree.
• Hero Talents that create frustrating or unsatisfying gameplay or rotations for your spec.
• Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.

Throughput comparisons of Hero Talent trees are helpful, but we’re more interested in gameplay, feel, and choice feedback at this stage. Also, when possible, we appreciate it when you focus posts or articles on a single spec and Hero Talent tree, rather than combining feedback about multiple issues.

Again, Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback on Hero Talent trees and are very excited for you to see everything else we’re working on. Thank you!

– The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

[Jedith-sargeras]

Wanted to share my initial findings and thoughts on the Aldrachi Reaver Hero Talent tree.

Fully aware its a big work in progress and many things are NYI or Not Fully Implemented. Just documenting a list of what I find. Will also share some gameplay/feel sentiments at the end.

Picking up 1 Soul Fragment is giving 2 stacks towards the 3 required to use Reaver’s Glaive

Reaver’s Glaive ability seems to interact with some Throw Glaive talents but not others

Does NOT work with Furious Throws
Preemptive Strike DOES apply to Reaver’s Glaive
DOES Work with Accelerated Blade
Reaver’s Glaive DOES apply Burning Wound
Reaver’s Glaive DOES NOT apply Serrated Glaive
Reaver’s Glaive DOES NOT apply Soul Scar
Reaver’s Glaive does not use a charge of Throw Glaive & is off the GCD

ESCALATION
“Effect of second enhancement increased by 100%” is NOT working on Reaver’s Mark (Does not extend the buff longer, nor does it increase it to 30% from 15%)

Does work on Blade Dance (Results in 6 extra slashes instead of 3)

WARBLADE’S HUNGER
Does not seem to work.
No extra instance of damage and Chaos Strike does the same damage.

WOUNDED QUARRY
Tooltip currently says 0 dmg but is doing somewhere around ~2k physical dmg on pvp dummies

THRILL OF THE FIGHT
Going Blade Dance > Chaos Strike gives the 5s buff for 15% attack speed (which right now is actually giving 0%, as per the buff tooltip)

But going Chaos Strike > Blade Dance gives the 5s buff + a 30s buff for “Next Attack does 30%” (This buff is also bugged and doing 0%)

Seems like Chaos Strike is not hooked up to be a finisher ability in the pattern - which would explain why Escalation wasn’t working when finishing with Chaos Strike.

Metamorphosis DOES eat up Thrill of The Fight 30% dmg buff, which will be a problem when trying to fit the Aldrachi Reaver “pattern” into our established opener, utilizing Chaotic Transformation.

GAMEPLAY & FEEL
Some major concerns right off the hop with how this all works.
As of right now (with the bugged soul fragment gain), Reaver’s Glaive is available insanely quick (about every 3-4s). This results in having to use it before Death Sweep is even back up off CD and only getting the Annihilation buff. Reaver’s Glaive being available this often, and being off the GCD, results in a major increase in APM and is pretty intrusive to a variety of different builds. The mechanic that Reaver’s Glaive adds to the mix feels like it ends up hijacking the normal rotation and gameplay of Havoc. Even once Soul Fragments are fixed to only give 1 stack, opposed to 2, I still believe the rate at which Reaver’s Glaive is usable will pose the same problems.

The increase of Fury generation from the extra soul fragments generated from talents in the tree (unrelated to the increased stacks on pickup) result in massively overcapping resources and removes the need, or greatly reduces the importance of, other Fury generating abilities like Immolation Aura, Felblade, Vengeful Retreat.

Ultimately, it’s a widely shared sentiment that Havoc has evolved to a point where it requires a lot of micro-managing of short cooldown windows (Inertia 5s, Essence Break 4s, Initiative 5s and now Reaver’s Mark 5s). Lining up all of these short windows is crucial to performing well and output is heavily punished when mistakes happen. This makes playing Havoc extremely inaccessible. While it might be manageable for some, it will be extremely unhealthy for the spec moving forward.

Even the most capable players are seemingly feeling “cooldown window exhaustion” and are craving something in the opposite direction. Rather than adding to the pile of things we manage, adding talents or mechanics to help relieve said stress would make playing Havoc much more enjoyable and lower the required level-of-execution.

[Kaivax]

With today’s Alpha update, Fel-Scarred Hero Talents are now available for testing.

Fel-Scarred Demon Hunters embrace the monster within! Blasts of devastating Fel fire are unleashed while in demon form, and activating Metamorphosis greatly empowers additional Fel-themed abilities.

The Fel-Scarred endure a pain that bubbles just beneath the surface, granting increased maximum Fury and a portion of their demon form bonuses at all times. Those who stand in their way will inevitably be introduced to that pain by intense fiery abilities and blades that burn with Fel energy.

Please try it out and let us know what you think here!

[Jedith-sargeras]

Wanted to share my initial findings and thoughts on the Fel-Scarred Hero Talent tree.

Fully aware its a big work in progress and many things are NYI or Not Fully Implemented. Just documenting a list of what I find. Will also share some gameplay/feel sentiments at the end.

DEMONSURGE

Annihilation and Death Sweep both proc Demonsurge the first time you use them
Mentioned there was no visual in my video - Turns out there is, it’s just incredibly subtle. Looks like a small puff of light blue dust. Same visual effect as Ragefire, which is also an underwhelming interpretation of a massive explosion.

Currently deals Fire dmg but SHOULD convert to Chaos dmg via AMN (without this conversion, demonsurge damage is incredibly low, even in mass aoe).
Due to this conversion not happening, it’s also not benefiting from Chaotic Disposition.

FOCUSED HATRED

Helps this tree function in ST scenarios as well as AoE.
Would prefer this to work more like First Blood where it deals extra dmg to the first target struck rather than only if Demonsurge hits a single target. This can currently sometimes get scuffed by accidentally hitting a critter or any other insignificant enemy.

PURSUIT OF ANGRYNESS

Hard to tell if it’s actually working or not but doesn’t feel like it.
Could be interesting to add stacking stat buff, on top of the Movespeed per 10 Fury

BURNING BLADES

Works the same as Soulrend where the rolling dot is constantly building up.
Does Fire damage in tooltip and in the combat log (Assume it gets converted to Chaos w/ AMN as well)
*WCL log for this might be broken. Tooltip in WCL says only Throw Glaive contributes to this and that it is already chaos damage.

VIOLENT TRANSFORMATION

Tooltip states it only resets Sigil of Flame when you use Meta
Intended to also reset Immolation Aura along with Sigil

ENDURING TORMENT/MONSTER RISING

Persistent in the Buff Bar (not necessary, floods an already cluttered bar)
Helps to smooth the peaks and valleys in Demonic playstyle
Doesn’t feel as punishing when you drop Demon Form
The extra 3% haste helps to spend more GCD’s and get back to Eye Beaming

I understand the intent and purpose of these talents but I feel they could possibly be a bit more interesting than just constant stat increases.

Maybe X amount of Fury spent in Demon Form grants X AGI/Haste/Crit outside of Demon Form, diminishing over time.

UNTETHERED FURY

Increases maximum Fury by 50, bringing it to a total of 170
In theory, works in tandem with PURSUIT OF ANGRYNESS to provide 17% extra movespeed when you’re full fury.

STUDENT OF SUFFERING

Buff applies on sigil activation rather than placement
Mastery buff increases dmg of all abilities that are chaos damage or being converted to chaos dmg

8s buff window so easily lines up with most/all things you need it to
Buff is applying regardless of which talent on the choice node is selected (Not Intended)
Talent tooltip says 14%, buff tooltip says 8%, increase on character sheet is 14%

FLAMEBOUND

Increases range of Immo Aura by 2yds
30% Increased Critical Strike Damage Bonus
Helps increase amount of damage funneled into Ragefire

DEMONIC INTENSITY

Empowers (30% dmg increase) to Eye Beam, Immolation Aura and Sigil of Flame
TURNS THEM INTO NEW ABILITY > Same Effect (higher dmg) different name & icon

Eye Beam - Abyssal Gaze
Immolation Aura - Consuming Fire
Sigil of Flame - Sigil of Doom

Would be nice to see different animations for these new abilities.

Because these 3 abilities are now “empowered”, they are capable of triggering Demonsurge.

Empowered versions stay available as long as you’re able to extend the Demon Form provided by pressing Meta

A Fire Inside does not seem to apply to the empowered version of Immolation Aura “Consuming Fire”.
Inherits the same active cooldown but does not benefit from multiple charges or resets.
*Potentially problematic if you’ve taken AFI alongside Cycle/SD - Staying in Meta for extended periods of time but also not able to benefit from the AFI talent.
This is an intermittent (more often than not) issue but sometimes you WILL actually get two charges of Consuming Fire.

“Demonsurge damage is increased by 10%”
does not work as intended & tooltip is unclear

How it ACTUALLY works:
Spending a Demonsurge increases your next Demonsurge by 10%, stacking up to 5 times. (50% increased damage). Applies to Demonsurges gained from Eye Beam and Metamorphosis.

Using Metamorphosis resets the buff stacks gained from Demonic Demonsurges

Eye Beam > 2x Demonsurges (1. 10%, 2. 20%) > Meta (resets buff stacking) > 5x Demonsurges (1. 10%, 2. 20%, 3. 30%, 4. 40%, 5. 50%)

The 5th buff of 50% then has nothing that it can be spent on. Meaning we only ever benefit from the 40% buff.

Haven’t found a scenario yet where we can actually make use of that 50% buff. It may be superfluous and confusing to players.

POTENTIAL SOLUTION to the above is to make the buff trigger a Demonsurge when it falls off - Either when removed via Meta or expires naturally.
(This would make use of the 20% buff or the 50% buff)

When you get this stacking buff, the value on Demonic Intensity tooltip changes to 2% until the buff falls off ?

GAMEPLAY/FEEL

Plays way smoother than Aldrachi Reaver. More in-line with some of the other Hero Talent trees from other classes. Feels very non-intrusive to Demonic playstyle. As we expected, Aldrachi has more movement/precision based gameplay and Fel-Scarred has Brutish, Demonic, Flashy explosions.

The newly Empowered abilities receiving new names and icons is definitely a nice refresher. Have heard players say they wish the combat animation of these abilities changes as well.

Players have also been wanting a change to their Demon Form appearance - Something like this was vaguely mentioned in a datamined Demonsurge tooltip last week but no longer seems to be there.

Definitely appreciate how these modifications don’t completely alter gameplay and can actually work with a variety of different builds. The obvious build is a Demonic “No-Mover” build which is focused heavily on planting, blasting Annihilations and Death Sweeps to reduce the CD on Eye Beam and stays in Demonic as long as possible.

But these Hero talents CAN also work with a build more akin to what is currently played in Dragonflight, utilizing Throw Glaive talents. Throw Glaive feeding damage into Burning Blades as well as Soulscar, provides significant additional damage. You also have the option to swap between Student of Suffering for Single Target and Flamebound for more AoE/Ragefire damage.

Still some uncertainty on the intended playstyle that Fel-Scarred is trying to encourage.
Hard to tell if we should try to stay in Demon Form as much as possible to benefit from the Empowered abilities or if we’re meant to dip in and out to benefit from Demonsurges and the talents Enduring Torment/Monster Rising.

If we’re meant to dip in and out then that immediately has conflict with talents like Cycle of Hatred/Shattered Destiny, which are meant to keep us in Demon Form.

It’s possible there is no right or wrong answer and greatly depends on the entire collection of talents chosen which compensate for the give and take of being, or not being in Demon Form.

It seems like the intended style may be to dip in and out, as we only get Demonsurges on the first use of Empowered abilities. If we were meant to stay in, we would be able to trigger Demonsurge from every use of empowered abilities. If so, this has anti-synergy with our Capstone talent Shattered Destiny.

Won’t know if Enduring Torment/Monster Rising is enough to soften the blow of forced downtime and losing Demon Form until we’re able to sim.