I won’t argue that’s an issue in WoW as well. Older content becomes less relevant as time moves on. Timewalking isn’t sufficient to address that.
But let’s not ignore the fact that even in FFXIV old raids become trivialized by players acquiring new gear. It’s very easy to ignore mechanics in older FFXIV raids simply because anyone at level 80 will be benefiting from gear much stronger than was around at the time those raids were introduced. The gear synchs as does the level of the player’s character, but it’s not a, “this is the stat cap,” kind of synch.
Raiding the Crystal Tower in Shadowbringers is easier than it was in Stormblood, which had it easier than Heavensward.
Not sure if entirely on topic, but back in MoP I joined a friend and two others guildmembers in getting the Herald of the Titan achievement. We all went into it thinking it was going to be a challenge, something that would be fun to do together… and for the most part it was until we actually put together the raid group to do it.
It was very disappointing to not only find out we didn’t need a full raid to do it, but that we also were so overpowered because of new talents and enchants, he died before we could even see the fight. All the weeks of running Ulduar for gear and making sure everything was just right, it was over in a blink.
While I’m glad Blizzard left it in game as a way for us to try it as it was in intended to be done, it really showed just how difficult it is to keep old content challenging after so many years of updates.
Old questlines that were relevant to any expansion should of never been removed imo. A lot of people were not happy when they removed the battle for undercity quest from wolk.
Many RPG’s use scaling, this is a non-issue in terms of being an RPG.
Timegated content.
Any meaningful game world would, in fact, have events happen that sometimes only happen once. It is, in all practical fact, more logical in an in-universe sense that sometimes things can’t be done or had again once they’ve been defeated.
This reinforces a living world, not detracts from it. An RPG seeks to have a living world, that you operate in, under a role and guise. This isn’t harmed by this. You just don’t like it.
Borrowed Power Systems
Why would your powers work outside of the regions that the people feeding your power operate? The fact that Soulshape alone works outside of the Shadowlands is lore-wise insane. The fact that any of the powers work outside of the Shadowlands is actually more a “for us” thing.
You disliking the mechanic doesn’t make it solidly lore based and a reasonable RPG mechanic.
Exclusivity/Removed Content
This one is trickier but a living world, like an MMO, is going to have things “happen” in “time.” An RPG is about immersing yourself in that world as it is. Why would you expect that all things will last forever in a living world? Do you think you can still buy a “vintage” ww2 lighter fresh off the press? No, you can’t, so why would you be able to do so in WoW?
WoW does not use it well. It’s insane that you become weaker as your level goes up or you get better gear.
I… think you misunderstood what I said completely. Its not about something happening once, it’s about content being broken up across 15 weeks, rather than allowing the player to complete it as they choose.
I… what? Did you actually read my post? I know it was long but you also failed to understand the point of this one.
Maybe I just couldn’t clearly convey my thoughts. If so, I’m sorry.
Allow me to try a hypothetical. Let’s say life is a game. For the purposes of the game, it starts you out in the 1920s. So, can you buy a vintage WW2 lighter? Yes, during WW2.
A living world in an RPG means one that expands, not one that erases it’s past as it expands. You don’t start a level 1 character in Oribos, you start in Stormwind/Orgrimmar (Well, whichever zone is relevant to said character). Granted it’s possible to start in that new starter experience, but that doesn’t mean Elwynn Forest or Durotar and their quests are all gone.
Many games don’t, but that doesn’t stop them from being RPG’s. Oblivion was inarguably an RPG and that suffered some serious leveling problems.
RPG is about playing a role. It’s literally the name.
I agree, I think I read “time limited” and not “time gated.”
I believe we’re talking about the same concept, but I could be wrong. Borrowed power is anything outside of your core character that, at least presumably, lasts for only a window of content.
My point with Covenant abilities was to showcase that you are, indeed, “borrowing” power, but that it makes no sense that you’d keep it later given the current setup. I’d agree that Artifacts were a bit weird, but the story did fairly explain why they couldn’t keep up.
Ergo my point. So long as the story makes sense, there’s no reason why we must keep that power. It sounds like you view “borrowed” power as inherently bad (not an illogical take per se) but you’re tying it to RPG, and therefore lore, which makes it a bad take.
That doesn’t change it’s RPG status.
For all practical purposes that’s not been the lore perspective in WoW. Everything in TBC was over when WotLK started; the content existed for gameplay reasons. Yet they’ve always removed certain things over time. Legendaries have ceased to be available, titles have been removed when the content wasn’t meaningful, and so on.
WoW seeks to prefer the present, but it allows the past to be visitable where necessary.
So things like the zones, factions, reputations, and so on, needed to mostly engage the content? Those stay. They have to or the content doesn’t really “work.” If they don’t then the content is basically empty of purpose.
Things like Challenge Mode or Mage Tower, however, are not the same. The purpose was themselves. They’re not needed to engage in the content. More importantly they’re designed to be time-specific, and now that time is gone.
To Clarify
I don’t think you’re wrong for disliking all or some of these things. I think you’re wrong for saying it makes WoW less of an RPG.
WoW is a progressive RPG in which “now” is always moving forward. Time-specific content is, inarguably, tied to “now.” Why should you get the Scarab Lord title and mount today? Why should you get Hand of A’dal today? Why should you get Mage Tower rewards today? These are not things that are happening anymore lorewise.
On the one hand, though, I think that a game like WoW should be playable and enjoyable across all its locations.
Take a look at ESO for example: Ill say from the start that ESO is not perfect, it has a lot of issues, however every area in its various DLCs and chapters is playable in the same way now that it was when it was released. There is no drop off so far as playability is concerned. And ESO is different from WoW because the world is scaled to level 50 (the cap level) and your character is scaled up; so at level 1 you can go out to pretty well any zone and you will be meeting up with mobs who match your level. The scaling reduces as you level up and although its difficult, you could become strong enough to ‘out level’ the content. So I could go on my level 1 character to an expansion released last year and I’d be fine.
It would be the equivalent of me taking my level 1 into Shadowlands and my character could quest there, gain experience and goodies and level up at the same time. No need of Chromie Time or all that stuff, just a character out in the world matching it with whatever they meet. Certain things would be harder - I couldnt just take out a world boss, but that world boss could be fought with other players just as it could at level 60.
However, it does have its issues. In order to make the world more ‘new player’ friendly the scaling system in ESO tends to make low level questing extremely easy. My low level toons hardly ever die, unless they are completely overwhelmed by numbers. As long as you play smart its a bit of a cake walk. But the benefits outweigh the issue imo.
That actually sounds like how they implemented it is the problem, not the inherent with the scaling itself. Skyrim comes to mind where it scales enemies up but to an extent and still manages to makes you more powerful then the enemies if you simply outpower them. (or outclass them too)
Wow can’t be an esport even if they try it , you can’t have 32 specs and have them all balanced . Even 1% is a big big deal the higher you go . Sports like races are calculated within Milli seconds
You will also have to get rid of the leveling/gearing aspect and do what overwatch does like change classes any time with bis gear .
So technically its still more RPG than esport like 75-25
This entire section is just an opinion. I think scaling works extremely well in an RPG because it allows the RPG to always stay engaging overall. On top of that, if the entire world properly scale with you (it does not in WoW), it allows for way much more variety in end-game which increases more roleplay decisions if you ask me since any gear from any raid can potentially be used in end-game builds, instead of only just the equipment from Shadowlands.
To me, that’s a big deal about roleplaying. Having the freedom to build and customize your character. Without scaling, we will be funneled into a specific route instead of having that true freedom of building our equipment and picking what would best fit our characters.
Now, granted there is a difference between bad scaling and good scaling if you ask me. For example, scaling for trash mobs should still keep them as trash mobs… Meaning if you are a properly equipped max level player against a max level trash mob, you should still kill it in 1 to 3 shots depending on which ability you use. Scaling is more important for bosses and equipment. For example, let’s say we do kill gods in an RPG. If two different gods are shown in lore to be equal in power but only one of them is actually a threat while the other we one-shot, simply because that god was from old content…? Scaling would fix that to make sure that beings of equal power stay as equal threats for the player.
To be fair, the entire OP is an opinion. I did state as much at the very top. Well, I used the word, ‘feedback,’ but I should hope it amounts to the same thing. I did state I speak for no one other than myself.
No offense taken or anything, I just wanted to clarify that I agree with you that its an opinion.
As I’ve conceded earlier in the thread, Scaling can work well in RPGs and MMO-RPGs. I’m of the opinion that it doesn’t work well in World of Warcraft, and that is a problem.
I think it can work well but Blizzard has choose to not make it work well in the current state. Obviously, to make scaling work successfully then it would require a lot of changes but due to how Blizzard made WoW to be, and how it is marketed… There’s no way to easily make a scaling world work fully. The best they could do is make something that you can opt in if you want something similar to it, and this is mostly because of the community being against it (which I honestly don’t get personally. The benefits of a scaling world tend to far outweigh the potential negatives but that’s just me).
Well, I think there are people who play an RPG for the story, or for the gameplay, and that’s something of a spectrum. So, there are some who want story, and some who want a challenge.
I think the bigger issue is, for a lot of players, Scaling doesn’t give a challenge. Just tedium.
Mobs in the open world are not a threat, and fighting them even with Scaling is not a challenge, its just annoying.
