I’m glad we agree that I would be affected after you initially stated I wouldn’t.
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The content you would be doing, this wouldn’t be a problem.
Unless you plan on signing up to a 24 key with wrong talents, which somehow i very much doubt that.
Which is a weird thing for him to say since he believe Blizz could balance them all.
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Sure it would! The elitist mindset doesn’t stop at Mythic Raiding and high Mythic+ keys. It exist at all levels where people are progressing. Not everyone has the skill or time to raid mythic, so people do of varying skill levels progress in heroic raids and normal raids.
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Because they had a choice, if Enhance is so garbage they can swap to Ele, if Ele talent B is bad they can swap to Ele talent A, if Ele and Enhance is garbage for healing they can swap to Resto.
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People who care about playing the best spec for their class would do that. But everyone doesn’t do that. Are you trying to say if we went to warcraftlogs we wouldn’t see middle to bottom performing specs represented in Mythic raids proving the point that you don’t need to min/max to beat the hardest content?
If everyone truly cared about “being the best” and “not wanting to be a drag on their team,” then you would only see 4 classes/specs represented in mythic raids: Best tank class/spec; best melee dps class/spec; best ranged dps class/spec; and best healer class/spec.
Right now there’s a 17% difference between the top and bottom dps spec. The bottom dps spec has a lot of representation in clearing the last boss in mythic raids. 17% is substantial, proving you don’t have to min/max to beat the hardest content in the game. This means people are making much ado about nothing with Covenants.
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Enjoying them and them having high participation are two different things.
Define “beat”? Because in PVE at some point you’ll be able to kill the raid boss with suboptimal spec or even carrying a buyer or friend & family. In a World First race or MDI i can easily mention some spec that isn’t represented.
How many ret paladin achieve rank 1 with consecration as a talent back in Legion?
Also what exactly would you lose if they made the covenant easily swappable? You can still play your favorite or suboptimal talent, this is assuming you had faith that Blizz could balance them all.
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Two wrongs don’t make a right.
They cancelled all the other warfronts what the heck are you talking about?
That changed in Legion big time. It is now bring the right geared spec. When you kill world first bosses with just 2 OP healing specs (blizz did not fix that spec for a long time) you know there is a problem. Legion started the necessary geared spec and continued it in spades in BFA.
In all honesty, outside of the amazing art work and raid fights, BFA seems like they were guessing all the way through on what to do because specs were so powerless after legendaries were taken away from us.
That assumes spec B has the right gear to do that. That is 100% a dev thing, not a player thing. It is so much RNG on top of RNG I swear a first year game designer has been in charge of gear specing and loot tables for the last 5 years.
The problem remains that covenants will be tied to player power and players who choose the bad covenants will be viewed as bad players and will be discriminated against. It happens now, and will happen if the covenant system isnt adjusted. By making the abilities a separate talent system like essences and talents now there would be dynamic choice, while the aesthetic and class fantasy of covenant choice is preserved.
But that’s not the game’s fault, is it?
It’s the idea of the ‘optimal build’ being the ‘only build’ is a player driven mindset. It only gets worse the higher you climb. Someone thinking outside the norm could still post similar numbers in the range of the ‘optimal’ build, but because there’s such a stigma of being different it never sees the light of day.
Not really. You could ally yourself to the Kyrians, but pull out an ability (with soul conduits) from the Venthyr and have it contradict the aesthetic.
The idea behind the covenants is to give specs different tools for different playstyles and seeing how players adjust to the strengths and weaknesses of each Covenenat.
Removing that barrier between Covenants just makes the entire organization pointless.
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Um I am sorry to say but I do not think most people recognize random players outside of World First accomplishments as a spectacular players. You, I would definitely not categorize as one. I think more of you as a try hard who wishes they were world first but just can’t make the cut. I think many people are solid to good players, not that it really matters where anyone sees anyone else. What matters is having fun and if having fun to you is doing what you preach then more power to you. I think a lot more people have fun doing it in a more relaxed way and this game should be built around the majority, not the minority.
Its impossible to have a conversation with someone with such a closed minded view on what a requirement to run content should be. You are honestly saying that you can not run M+, do Mythic raiding, or participate in PvP if you are not 100% optimal? Do you not see how foolish you sound? Wanting to be optimal is one thing but expecting to be able to be optimal for everything is comical. I agree that Blizzard has allowed this to happen and even fostered its growth because they have made choices that encourage this line of thinking. I support them just yanking the carpet out from everyone by giving them multiple permanent choices with multiple layers of weaknesses and just seeing where the pieces fall.
I support this game making a complete 180 turn if they truly feel it is in the best interest of the longevity of the game. If I do not like where it goes I can always find something else to play but whatever has a chance of being better than what we have now is OK with me.
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All of your posts are based. Thank you.
That’s my view on it as well. I think it was MoP, when they changed the talent system when they started catering to this mindset. Swappable talents at leisure, play all of your specs (no more paying for double spec), and reforging your pieces for different secondary stats.
I just want WoW to go back to the way things were before that time and this next expansion may be bringing us closer rather than further. If it doesn’t, I’ll just quit and go back to FF14. If it does, then I’ll start to get back into the raiding scene. I haven’t even bought the expansion yet, because I’m waiting for this whole covenant thing to pan out. If they cave to the min/maxers, forget about buying it.
That would be so annoying lol. Imagine you’re pushing a key and you see a fire mage and you say awesome a fire mage, he’s probably going to do good damage.
Psych! He cares more about PvP, so he’s got his utility covenant equipped. He now does 20% less dmg than an exactly geared mage with the right covenant.
You’re thinking of the vanilla version of the game where meaningful choice was a thing. You know what vanilla didn’t have though? Multiple forms of end game content. There was only raiding. Now there’s 3. And people enjoy doing all 3, not picking 1 to be good at and severely gimped in the other 2.
You’re talking about weaknesses? A weakness is not being able to take mass root because you need a stun.
A handicap is being passed over for every group because you are raid specced and therefore do 20% less healing in dungeon situations than the other druid who Q’s up. Guess what? The dungeon druid is going to be invited. Every. Single. Time. And people think raider io is bad now 
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I concede that I do prefer that version of WoW. I also am not dismissing the fact that there are multiple end games in todays WoW. I never claimed that there should be a gap of 20% between the ‘correct’ or ‘incorrect’ choice. I also have not ever said that I like what numbers I am seeing on the alpha. I was thinking something as small as 5%. That way it is not so punishing but also not so overpowered. I like choice with some consequence. I am speaking for me and no one else here.
Actually, Vanilla had 2 endgame activities. PvP and Raiding. You’re raiding build was not your PvP build. It cost loads of gold to swap if you wanted to be optimal in both forms of content. I wager most just learned not to be optimal in both forms of content.
In your mage example, you’re speaking theoretical. Most of the time, which we can see in warcraftlogs as evidence, any given two people aren’t equal in skill. The moral of the story is you can probably choose the covenant you want and the small percetage difference in DPS won’t be noticed due to the wide variety of skill levels.
Like I said in a previous post, if people truly cared about maximizing their dps potential, they wouldn’t willingly choose a class/spec that’s doing 17% less dps than the top spec dps. They’d be rerolling as balance changes to stay “optimal” and not “hold their group back.”
So why aren’t most players rerolling the best tank, healer, and dps class/spec every raid tier and boss in that raid tier? Because the fights aren’t tuned so tight where people need to be min/max.
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Um I am sorry to say but I do not think most people recognize random players outside of World First accomplishments as a spectacular players. You, I would definitely not categorize as one. I think more of you as a try hard who wishes they were world first but just can’t make the cut.
So theres no way theres any great players, theres only 20 spectacular players at a time, because only 20 people get world first. That is so god damn elitist coming from someone who only does heroic. The plenty of people who are capable or raiding at a world first level but not everyone has the time to commit to that. 90% of the difference between a great player and a world first level raider is time. I can’t believe your actually gate keeping being a great player behind time while also being in no position to comment.
Its impossible to have a conversation with someone with such a closed minded view on what a requirement to run content should be. You are honestly saying that you can not run M+, do Mythic raiding, or participate in PvP if you are not 100% optimal? Do you not see how foolish you sound?
Have you even thought about considering what content he wants to run. Why can’t someone be allowed to do both high mythic plus and high end raiding or do high end pvp and do high end raiding if thats the part of the game they enjoy? mythic raiding guilds in the top 500 will be expecting their players to bring their best spec to raid and with the current difference between certain abilities having an non optimal ability for your class is the fastest way to get yourself benched because your output will be lower than someone else’s and assuming equal skill then ofc the raid leader will take the person who will do more by default. Imagine trying to raid at a high level with the talents because you like the way they look, thats so stupid. The trickle down effect then applies from the highest content to the lowest content. IF people see people raiding at world first level say this is the best way to play your class then the trickle down effect goes to the rest of the player base and anyone that picked a certain covenant ability thats wrong suddenly can no longer get into groups in will be booted for it. The only to fix this system is to allow people to spec into what they need to be the covenant abilities are TOO IMPACTFUL.