Only if you’re kiting. I don’t kite, I tank it. Sometimes I kite briefly depending on situation but as is, as far as raw tanking, Holy Avenger is less defensive (though the silence is nice). Granted I’m only doing 12s-15s but I find going more defensive works better, especially since you can’t really kite a boss without it being detrimental to the group, if the boss can be kited that is.
I don’t even take the Conc slow/radius increase because I prefer the ability to offheal. Again, only 12s-15s (or lower) but just how I like to play.
Might as well go moment of glory at that point. Generally speaking, fishing for resets from Grand Crusader are sufficient for me as I’d rather have the raw damage from Bulwark or the defensive/offensive combo of Dawn and Dusk (or if I’m feeling really crazy, the extra holy power generation to better heal/offheal from Magistrate’s Judgment)
It’s more of an extremely high key thing, with 9 out of the top 10 Prots running Blessed Hammer because they’re at the point where it’s kite or die. I personally prefer face tanking as well, but it’s pretty cool that we have a strong kiting setup available as an option, rather than just the ‘give up or go DH’ sentiment that’s been going around lately.
You can definitely do some serious work during Grievous weeks with HotP. Other than that, I almost always run Consecrated Ground just because I pug nearly everything, and pug DPS, even in 15s where you’d hope they know better, are very unreliable with their peels.
Checks out to me lol. We def have a lot of flexibility/tools at our disposal.
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Yeah I just like playing a support tank more than anything. Get a lot of compliments from healers lol. The idea is that if I can help with spike damage here and then it helps the healer keep me up. High keys I’m always tempted to switch (and probably would) if for only to make off healing less tempting so I keep myself alive.
The fact that we’re the only tank that can offheal (efficiently) is nice. Low m+ and m0 running as tank/healer with 4 DPS is always fun and sometimes a challenge lol
These are usually the important group wiping pulls. you usually dont kite the small mobs, mini boss mobs, and casters, obviously I mean groups like the caged dudes in SD, the raging skeletons in DoS, a big pull of birds in DoS, bears in HoA and other hard mobs, those require quite a lot of kiting. and first avenger is rly not gonna help u with them they just chunk through, the other packs really can be tanked easily without first avenger, so just because you get over 700-900k in absorbs in a run, the relevance of it for most pulls is almost nonexistant.
This is what you would call an example of a pull, to make a point, don’t take things so literal. also they are not a mendatory pull, you could have just started with that.
not most, you need hunter/druid and u need 2 soothers for that because they usually enrage together and one of them can wipe the floor with you, so ye u can use ancient kings, or u can just kite them around, which is usually what everyone does (kite).
So you do kite them, case and point.
tell me it makes a difference vs any of the mobs u just said you kite… it doesnt.
and the ones you dont need to kite, it doesnt make a big difference.
If you wanna use it, it’s a viable option, I am not arguing against it, I’m just saying on the pulls that matter, it doesn’t do much, so I’d rather have the 2 judgments while kiting to do more damage as u usually kite 2-3 mobs at most and judgment would do more dmg on that on average.
Those birds can be face tanked easily up to 20+ stacks.
When making a point in an argument, being literal and providing real examples are important.
Don’t forget rogues. Also if its only one that’s engaged, I can handle it.
Kiting and disengaging is different. Kiting is constant movement. Disengaging is dropping stacks and going back in.
I’m telling you with personal experience timing +18s on fortified. You keep arguing with me based on nothing of substance. Divine Toll with First Avenger is a big defensive. Once you push higher keys than me, maybe I’ll bow down and accept that you are right.
Have you tried running anything except that in +18s and notice a difference? Kinda doubt that, as there really isn’t that much of a difference on the pulls that actually matter, because the ones you usually kite(or disengage, semantics) that talent wont give u almost any shield as its very few mobs, and the big pulls that u do and get a massive shield for, don’t really require that shield as they really dont do that much damage to you to begin with, nothing your SotR and WoG can’t easily handle.
Essentially the same, u constantly move to avoid the bears until stacks drop off then u go back in. (as an EXAMPLE).
idk what stats u r running but one of those enraged can chunk about 50% of ur hp on fort weeks if not more esp on the keys you are bragging about.
I did provide real examples, but you took them to literal and situational, the examples I gave were all mobs you kite (or disengage to make you more comfortable), and taking only one of the examples to fit your narrative is taking it out of context, in the broader sense my examples work, if you want to nitpick we can say u can do this and that, u can also bubble taunt those packs and no need to kite, that is not a realistic solution.
and at 20 stacks you do… what, oh thats right, kite (or disengage w.e).
Look, I’ll make it easy on both of us, I am not against either talent, they both have strengths and weaknesses, I prefer double judgment for the times I need to kite, and I dont find the shield you get from First Avenger to matter that much on the packs you dont need to kite.
On that note, I also don’t think 2 judgments matter THAT MUCH in kiting situations, both are viable options and do different jobs but they dont outdo one or the other THAT MUCH in any situation.
Sosari and I have our own disagreements but generally Sosari is correct, especially with regards to higher keys. Regarding y’all’s back and forth, I’d say that still stands to be true.
Vonmongrr mentioned extra damage (see quote) from having Crusader’s Judgment over First Avenger. I just wanted to point out that not only does First Avenger provide defensive ability but also increases damage/AoE throughput/threat grab, increasing total targets hit by Avenger Shield from 3 to 5. Single target Avenger Shield is going to average about 40-50% of the damage of Judgment. That being said, AoE pulls (aka what most of Mythic+ is) it’s value is only going to go up.
For example, First Avenger vs Crusader’s Judgment, baseline Judgement damage at 2k, you can expect AS to be around 800-1000 (will use 800 to be safe). You pull a pack (5+), you’re kiting it or even just doing raw damage to it. Sure, you can judge twice, that’s 4k on the board across up to two targets, then AS for another 2400 (800x3 targets) across 3 targets totalling 6400 damage. Meanwhile with First Avenger, you can Judgment for 2k then Avenger Shield, that’s another 4k damage (800x5 targets) on the board across 5 targets for a total of 6k damage and an absorb for 4k (100% of the damage dealt as a shield).
Granted, at 3 or less targets the double judgment is going to be stronger damage wise, however, Avenger Shield still would grant a shield for 1200 damage with FA. So, anything over two targets, First Avenger is going to be the superior choice, not to mention it has baseline resets with Grand Crusader.
Let’s get even crazier, same situation, assuming Kyrian (5+ targets). With CJ, again you get 4k on the board across up to two targets then Divine Toll for another 12k damage across 5 targets (800x5x3 targets) for a total of 16k. With FA, 2k from Judgement with a DT for another 20k across 5 targets (800x5x5 targets) for a total of 22k damage and an absorb for 20k (roughly 40% of a health bar).
tldr: First Avenger is more damage (in packs over 2-3, also spreading damage/threat to more than a single target) AND a damage absorption (which is damage reduction, no matter how you look at it) and will be the stronger choice almost always. That’s before taking legendaries into account (like Holy Avenger’s chance to reset AS on cast).
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Outside of that, to further support some of Sosari’s statements:
Yes, Rogues can also dispel enrages (as I frequently do, despite it being tied to a DPS CD as Assassination, I do have a thread requesting a shorter CD and separation from the DPS CD).
Regarding specifically the bears in HoA; Usually there’s two per pack. The enrage can be completely stopped by killing/CCing the houndmaster with them (as they’re the one that triggers it via casting ‘Loyal Beasts’, immune to interrupt, as to be a stun or other CC) and even if Loyal Beasts goes off, I personally Shiv one (for the dispel) and then 5 point Kidney the other which essentially neutralizes the damage. Of course, with a mix of other enrage dispels/stuns/CC this same effect (and more) can be achieved so as Sosari said, DPS issue but honestly if you only have one pack of bears then you should be Hand of Justicing the houndmaster anyways. p.s. Paladins also have an AoE disorient when talented.
I literally (outside of a mistake) never kite the bears because I don’t (and shouldn’t) have to. Paladins, especially Kyrian, just have too many great tools at their disposal. Helps to run with good DPS that CCs/dispels/prevents enrages though.
tldr: Bears are a non-issue. dispel/CC enrage. Stunning/killing houndmaster prevents enrage entirely.
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or bubble cleanse /shrug
See bear breakdown above.
I’ll end on this note, Sosari is doing higher keys, I’m doing lower keys (on a regular basis) and we’re both telling you the same thing. First Avenger is the absolute superior talent in that row at almost all times. But especially as a Kyrian. If you’re Kyrian and you’re not going First Avenger, you’re doing it wrong lol. Regardless of how fast the pack chews threw that 20k+ absorb, it’s still more damage mitigation (and honestly more damage period) than one extra hammer.
My statement was meant at the skeletons in DoS, not bears in HoA. I think we both agree that bears enraging is mostly dps fault, even tho I too can stun the huntsman just usually i am not near it, depends on the pull.
I never said bears were an issue, I said they area a trash pack you will more likely than not have to kite.
Again, it’s an example, every example you can find an outlier.
I can bubble taunt every pull that is kiteable, is that a solution for all scenarios? no matter the case? no matter the pull? /shrug
I’ll answer this with my other post cause I hate to keep retyping everything…
I am not arguing about it being viable or not, or what’s bis, all I am saying, the shield it provides is meh at best, as the times u need it are somewhat irrelevant, and when u r kiting it doesnt matter at all and i’d rather be able to judge while kiting to keep agro.
Overall dps in M+ first avenger wings, obviously, I never argued otherwise
On the pull that matter, it still helps noticeably. Its not just about the barrier, its everything in combination. The barrier+350 mastery is a real defensive that lasts as long as Ardent Defender.
I mean I ran with Baz the hunter who is pretty vocal on this forum in a random group I had who can attest. You can cast Bloodscale trinket with Ardent Defender or Divine Toll during the rage cast, so while you are still full hp. Or GoAK on its own.
Why is Final Stand not a solution? It is a big part of the Paladin toolkit that no other class has access to. I will intentionally pull big at times with the full intention of bubbling. Like the pack after 2nd boss of HoA with the 4 dogs and 2 archers. Ill literally stand in there pop my trinket and divine toll which will last until the enrage happens. Then I bubble and stand there for the duration.
At 20 stacks they should be dead or you can clear stacks with BoP+remove aura macro, or Final Stand.
Because you can’t do it for every pack you need to kite around? it has a cooldown?
You know we are pretty much arguing about nothing here, we both pretty much disagree with OP, and all I am arguing about is the shield of first avenger vs single target damage that 2 judgments bring lol
You bring good points, but dont forget about Bulwark of Righteous Fury which is a huge dps boost. My SoTR outshines Judgements in overall damage done by double. The Judgement talent does have its usefulness. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying its not viable it definitely is. It can be used to generate Holy Power to spend.
I know I wrote a lot so it was easy to miss/ignore but I basically dunked on that already. First Avenger is absolutely superior to double judgment if you’re kiting more than one mob. As you do more damage AND get an absorb shield. If you’re kiting and trying to hold threat at the same time, then an attack that hits 5 targets (vs 3) will always win out, especially if you’re fishing for resets with blessed hammer (passively generating threat essentially) and I agree that the baseline absorb isn’t a lot and you’d be right. However, and this is important, as I said if you’re Kyrian it’s absolutely superior because it’s a huge absorb which can be the difference between life and death or just help you better setup.
If you’re not Kyrian than eh, I’d still take the absorbs but it’s much less of an obvious choice at that point.
Obviously you cant do it every pack, but you also wouldnt need it every pack. The ones that really need them are pretty much spaced at least 5 minutes apart. I run Final Stand, and I know where I want to use it. Therefore, it is up whenever I want to use it.
I mean just because we disagree doesn’t mean we are necessarily arguing. I respect your opinions, but I don’t mind hashing out the details.
actually u need there to be 3 kited mobs for first avenger to be more useful, as you have 2 judgments and a shield, and if u get a reset u get another judgment and anothier shield vs just 1 shield. but again, these are such small differences it doesn’t matter overall, and all I am saying is that the shield first avenger provides matters about just as much in most cases.
If we go for overall dps, avenger shield is by far superior in M+, but that was not my point at all, I was just talking about shield (hp absord) usefulness in a face tank situation vs 2 judgment usefulness in a kiting situation, which is about as useful, which is not that much.
Ofc bis is avenger shield but due to the aoe damage more so than the absord
Not to derail this back and forth but how do you like Final Stand? I generally like Sanctified Wrath (as a flexible boost to defensives/healing or more commonly offhealing. Even though I think Righteous Protector is the better overall defensive option, I try not to lean too hard on big defensives CDs.
I feel like I don’t trust Final Stand if that makes sense. Like I’m going to pop it and they’re going to run right past me lol. But yeah, how do you feel about it, if you don’t mind me asking.
Your looking at these abilities at face value and not really in the overall rotation. Yes Judgement will outshine Avengers Shield all day everyday, but if you have Bulwark legendary, it is another reason to go First Avenger.
All 3 seem viable, but I def prefer Righteous protector for the more often wings / GoAK, but I used to always take bubble taunt, and still will for necrotic sometimes.
I feel like Sanctified Wrath is only great for the boss fight which isn’t usually an issue in M+ for tanks