Professions Update: Concentration in The War Within

Greetings members of the Artisan’s Consortium!

As we reveal much of the content coming in The War Within, we’d like discuss a new system we’re cooking up for professions.

Inspiration

We added Inspiration in Dragonflight to try and capture the fantasy of critical hits while crafting. If you weren’t quite capped out on your gear and specializations for a given craft, or if you weren’t using max quality reagents to guarantee that max quality item, Inspiration was a way to get that lucky crit. It could save you some money (by using lower-quality reagents) and you could craft a better item than you would otherwise.

That was the hope at least, but it ended up (understandably) becoming a situation where crafters take this luck-based system, tell their customers that they would recraft an item an indeterminate number of times, and summarily charge a specific price per recraft until their Inspiration struck.

So we’re making changes, because:

  • There’s a lack of decision making and agency for the crafter.
  • There’s a lack of clarity for customers who just want items made.
  • It’s based heavily in RNG, which was never the goal of the Professions revamp.

In The War Within, we’re removing Inspiration. In its place, we have a new ability for crafters to utilize.

Concentration

Concentration is a resource, and you’ll have a separate pool of Concentration for each crafting profession.

It represents your ability to heavily focus on your recipes and exceed your normal capabilities. You choose when you want to Concentrate using a button in the crafting window, empowering your next craft(s). Doing so will cause the craft to automatically reach the next level of quality, no questions asked.

However, such heavy focus can take a toll, costing you some of your profession’s Concentration resource. The cost is determined by how far away you are from crafting that next quality tier and is modified by a few variables such as Profession Specializations, Finishing Reagents, and whether you are crafting consumables, reagents, or actual equipment.

For example, if you’re incredibly close to being able to craft a max-quality sword, you won’t need to Concentrate too hard to finish that project. However, if you’re just barely able to craft that same sword at quality 3, you will likely have to devote most of your Concentration to craft it at quality 4.

For those who want to focus on ingenious breakthroughs when concentrating, we also have a new stat to support your endeavors. This is Ingenuity, which gives you a chance to refund the Concentration spent on a craft. The more Ingenuity you have, the higher your chance to get that full refund. Outside of these Ingenuity-fueled refunds, Concentration will also automatically regenerate over time when you aren’t sitting at its cap.

Our goal is to provide crafters with a more deterministic way to accomplish the original objectives and intent behind Inspiration. You can use it to shore up a lack of skill, gear, or max-quality reagents while still making higher-quality crafts. Maybe you just want to save some money by using lower-quality reagents in a craft you can otherwise guarantee at maximum quality. Either way, we want to give crafters more agency over their crafting, provide more room for decision-making in the professions ecosystem, and provide a resource that you can use without having to give your customers a full statistical breakdown.

Please note that much of this system is currently being implemented, and will become available for testing in future builds of the War Within Alpha.

Thank you very much!

14 Likes

I’m very excited to test profession changes, and I’m looking forward to seeing Concentration and Ingenuity in action. My feedback here is primarily about Concentration.

Crafter Agency

I slightly disagree with the first bullet. I do have the choice of whether I use an insight or recraft until I proc. The agency is more about using the limited resource I already have - Mettle. The reason we have to recraft and confuse our customers (“send it as r4 min please!”) is because we are trying desperately to not run out of Mettle. If Mettle were not so rare, we could avoid the RNG and avoid confusing customers, and just use an insight every time. All three bullets would be solved. This would also be very boring.

Adding a new resource that is similarly limited will not change how much agency we have. I do like that Concentration feels more like a way to help the casual crafters perform, but if it is similarly required to hit Rank 5 and it is limited with no way to actively generate, then it will not address the current problem of why agency is so frustrating for us.

Crafter Resource Problem

I absolutely agree that the system needs to be clearer for customers. I think one way to solve this problem is to solve the resource problem. I am not sure why Mettle is currently so limited, as it means that a crafter feels like they should not craft for people sometimes. Mettle is the true currency of trade, but it doesn’t have a base value. Mettle for me or others who craft for the public everyday value Mettle extremely highly. Mettle for casual crafters is often nearly worthless. If the crafter market were truly open and all crafters were available all the time, then this would make sense and would reach equilibrium. However, what actually happens are the more active crafters are sometimes the only crafters online, often in non-peak cases, but they are incentivized to craft in the confusing way (“send as r4 min please!”) or not craft at all (in the case of diamonds).

I am not sure the original goals around resource limitation for crafters. For Concentration, I would strongly encourage the team to consider letting us have ways to generate it that are not based on simply waiting if it is required to hit rank 5. My assumption is the team wants to make sure all crafters have the chance to craft, but what actually happens is there may only be one or two crafters sitting in trade chat, and if you’re out of resource, you might as well not be playing. Customers wait longer, crafters have no reason to play, and the game overall suffers.

If you don’t need Concentration to guarantee max rank, then my thoughts are pointless. However, I think that kind of decision-less crafting would also be a step down and simply make this a more complicated version of the old crafting system. I do think that max rank should have some risk involved. I do not think that risk should be tied to a resource that limits how much someone can play.

11 Likes

Really happy to see that it’s capped. With a cap, people won’t be hoarding tens of thousands of it, so crafting prices should stay relatively stable, but it also promotes a “use it or lose it” mindset, where people are encouraged to not let it overcap, and not charge too much. It also allows people to charge higher prices during times of higher demand, like spark resets, so market conditions are more responsive to what’s going on that day/week, rather than subject to longer term effects like people hoarding resources for a particular day. It simultaneously accomplishes two seemingly contradictory goals, so I think that’s great!

Also huge W on not having to explain to customers why I want them to set it to rank 4, thank you for that.

I think the crafter agency comes from the fact that it’s granular, whereas insights were a binary. With insights, that guarantee cost 50 (or 10 for a lesser) mettle no matter what. With stuff costing less insight the closer it is to the next rank, you could hypothetically have a choice of crafting 20 armor patches, or 500 scales, versus the current system where you’d only be able to guarantee 20 of each. Under the current system, you’re just looking for the most gold per craft, whereas with concentration, you’re trying to get the most gold per concentration, or maybe it’s pretty close but you know the scales will sell faster.

There’s also more casual crafters, if an alchemist just wants to make their 2 flasks for raid night, and they’re not really interacting with the economy or AH all that much, they have the option of using the cheapest mats, and still getting their guaranteed r3 flask for raid, but it might cost most of their concentration, versus using more expensive mats and being able to interact with the market later, or also craft stuff for guildies/friends.

Mettle/Concentration have to be limited to have value. In a world where all crafters can print rank 5 aspect embellished items without any sort of limit there’s no point in even having a crafting fee.

2 Likes

The customer does not have to know, the burden is on the crafter, as it should be. The system should be as easy as possible for customers.

Because the customer will pay you for it.

That’s already how the system works. If a customer sets an order to r5, and you (as a crafter) put an illustrious insight in the optional reagents, it will add the 30 bonus skill and check if that puts you over the top for rank 5. If it does, then you can craft it. The problem is NOT that it is impossible to do orders that are set to rank 5 minimum currently.

The problem is that it’s around 7 times more efficient in terms of mettle usage to just do inspiration rolls, rather than using an insight. This strongly encourages crafters to ask customers to set the minimum quality to rank 4, which causes confusion among customers, and opens them up to being scammed. Concentration fixes both those problems, as it’s now (seemingly) the only way to guarantee aspect equivalent crafts so there aren’t two options for crafters to choose between, and customers can set rank 5 so they can’t get scammed.

Big agree.

So, this whole “confusion” for customers is around getting whispers from crafters telling them to do R4 personal orders? I know the public order ui doesn’t allow it. Certainly customers could offer a big enough tip to guarantee it if talking to a crafter.

Really the “fix” here is that Inspiration is gone, so there is no way to proc into the next rank. If they removed inspiration from DF, it would lead to the same outcome as what is being proposed. It really has nothing to do with Concentration.

At the end of the day, Concentration is basically just mettle with the following differences:

  • per profession
  • cannot be pooled over long periods of time
  • can be applied at varying amounts based on next rank skill deficit (i.e. imagine using multiple insights within a single craft)

There will definitely be second order effects from this. Concentration cannot be pooled and it is unclear how quickly it refreshes, so any rank of material lower than best will very quickly become “garbage” in order to conserve as much Concentration as possible. The fact that it cannot continue to stack over time (e.g. weekly 150 mettle quest) means this will never change as the weeks/patches progress. It will always remain scarce/lucrative.

It will take some very niche use-cases of someone being willing to blow all of their concentration on one craft per week (or whatever the math works out to be based on recharge) in order to craft using lower tier mats.

How many people are willing to settle for R4 gear or R2 consumables today? Next to no one.

I think you will just see hordes of alts to combat this shortcoming.

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I think you missed the point of my post. Yes, there is a threshold where I would just use an insight if the person pays it. That does not change the fact that it was (almost) always mathematically correct to roll with inspiration, rather than use the insight, on gear crafts.

They clearly want a way for non maxed crafters to be able to compete with maxed crafters. Inspiration provided that in DF, and concentration will provide that in War Within. A world without inspiration, but keeping insights, is one where non maxed crafters cannot compete with maxed crafters under most circumstances.

Yeah, so it’s not a “distinction without a difference” as you stated. There are important differences between concentration and mettle that make it fit much better with the goals they have for professions.

Yeah, that’s what I said in my post. Those are good consequences. r3 mats should be expensive, and crafters should be able to charge a premium for their services. Also the rate is currently known, but things like that are always subject to tuning, so it’s not all that important until we get closer to launch.

Exactly, and Blizzard has set it up so that crafters can profit from this, as they should.

Players who put more effort in should be rewarded more. I don’t think that’s controversial. Running out of concentration on a character should be possible. That allows other players to compete in the market, and keeps prices worthwhile for crafters.

It wasn’t the RNG. It was that the inspiration % was too high, the mettle per recraft too low, and the rank 2 mats too cheap. If mats were more expensive, or inspiration were lower, or it cost more mettle per recraft, then the insight would end up being better for crafters as a way to guarantee max rank crafts.

Ofcourse they’ll compete, customers will have a choice to go with non-max crafters, as they will still get their guaranteed max rank item. If Johnny Casual and Bobby Yachtson can both make a max rank item, sure, Johnny Casual will be able to do it fewer times per day, but he is still able to offer his services to players in the market, and Bobby has to deal with other people being able to offer the same service that he can.

Concentration currently tuned reasonably generously once a crafter is maxed, it’s something on the order of 15-20 aspect crafts a day. Low enough to still run out during times with large demand, but high enough that you’re probably not going to be constantly scrounging once you’re maxed.

Why? Wouldn’t that make gathering professions even more lucrative?

The cap is absolutely critical to it not being devalued like mettle is. Mettle is viewed as superfluous and without value by a large section of the playerbase, because they have 10,000 of it, and no ways to spend it. Even as late as the start of season 3, I would regularly get responses from people incensed that I would dare charge for something as plentiful as air. Now, there are even people who are selling insights for tips. The tradeoff is that they’re usually not that available, so aren’t around to craft for a lot of people, but it still the fact that many people aren’t valuing their mettle because they just have so much of it.

The granularity is also a huge plus to concentration. Being 3 points off of a 515 embellished blacksmith craft, and being forced to use an insight if the person sets it as rank 5, when it’s like an 85%+ proc chance, is just a terrible feeling.

I saw you post this in a different thread and didn’t comment on it, but it just straight up does not take 7 months, and it is not an hour a week. It’s just not true unless you’re purposefully skipping knowledge point sources and farming in extremely low density areas. It’s like 4-5 months for everything fully maxed, and 30 minutes total per week per character for 2 profs. It’s like 2-3 months to get most of the useful stuff in a profession, and the final couple months are fluff points for less desirable crafts. I’ve done it across 10 characters this expansion, and that’s been pretty consistent.

Who are these people swimming in mettle that aren’t double gatherers?

If you cannot find a way to spend mettle, you aren’t looking hard enough. I think a lot of your responses are based solely from a gear crafts perspective. Maybe worth looking at what else you can do other than gear.

I just blew through all of the mettle on one of my alts and made a killing.

BS = (30 * 13) + (30 * 7) + (30+40+20*2) + (30 * 3) = 800 KP total

S1 One time Treasures = 9*3 = 27 (so -27 from KP total, but lets round up to 30.
S1 First craft KP = ~93… I may have miscounted so lets just round up to 100
Consortiuum Books = 30
MC/VA Rep Books = 30
Profession Master = 5

So 800 - 195 = 605 KP needed to be grinded out.

10.1 dropped which added +9 KP of treasures, +8 from PvP gear first crafts, +10 from barter bricks, +10 from harlow with resources

Darkmoon Faire is +3 per, so by that 7 month mark, let’s be generous and throw in 8*3 = 24.

So now it’s 605 - 37 - 24 = 544

You could get roughly 14 KP per week.

  • +2 KP dirt/treasure
  • +2 mobs
  • +1 treatise
  • +3 town crafting quest
  • +3 crafting order quest
  • +3 go do stuff in world town quest

Down to ~38 weeks. I think I might be missing some sources, but it was roughly June/July timeframe.

The town quests ~5 minutes (log out/fake create self work orders/log in)
Dirt/Treasures - ~15 minutes (varied wildly especially early xpac on a high pop realm - literally had to realm hop to find nodes)
Mobs - 5-10 minutes depending on luck (remember S1 you were not 1 shotting them)
= 20-30 minutes total

Then double it, since you were likely doing a pair of professions per toon. I’m also assuming you were skipping the trip to Forbidden Reach as that came much later and travel time alone would increase that and baking travel time into those estimates.

30 minutes sounds like 10.3 numbers with 0 competition for treasures/dirt since no one bothers to pick it up anymore, and even mobs are rarely contested as few folks are out in the open world.

This did not reflect the 10.0, 10.1 experience.

Also - 5 months, might be doable on some professions with less nodes, I picked BS because it is one of the most egregious, enchanting for example was much easier in terms of number of weeks.

Regardless, even 5 months is too long! It wasn’t fun 1 month in and it definitely wasn’t fun on the 5th month.

Well I was talking maxed out profession, not partially maxed.

Yes, strategic routing and you could max out 1 given item within almost 1-2 months (e.g. 90 in hammer control, 90 in any one branch of armorsmith is 180 KP, roughly what you get from S1 treasures, reps, etc.)

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I would implore you to either watch trade chat during prime time for a few minutes, or to post “LF 525 [embellished item]” and then read your responses. Especially on a larger server like you say you’re on, there are many tip only crafters selling their insights for whatever a person will pay, especially at this stage in the expansion. This exact scenario is what I was saying having a low cap would prevent, or at least make less common.

I am still making (what I consider at least) good gold. I am doing fine under mettle, and I will hopefully probably do fine under concentration. I am able to see when something is a problem, even if it does not have a major impact on me personally.

Most of the blue post is addressing gear crafts, because that’s probably what they’ve gotten the most feedback on, and that’s where all the confusion people have is. The customer experience for consumables is just going to the AH and buying an item. They have to know literally nothing about how crafting works in order to receive their max rank item. Concentration is seemingly mainly intended to make it easier for players who want to have their gear crafted. For customers who haven’t even touched the crafting system, being told to set the minimum quality to rank 4 is extremely confusing. I remember at the start of season 2, customers were absolutely convinced I was trying to scam them, and I don’t blame them, it is a reasonable assumption to make if you know nothing about the crafting system.

Customers shouldn’t have to familiarize themselves with the crafting system and statistics to understand why I’m asking them to do something. There was also a (much smaller) subset of players who would just go for inspire procs, and then get mad when it didn’t proc on the 3rd one. Concentration is infinitely easier for customers to understand. All I have to do is tell a customer “It takes me X concentration to do the craft, so that costs Y.” They get their max rank item without risk of being scammed, they don’t have to understand anything other than it costs me some resource to do their craft.

I noticed you didn’t mention dragon shards. Even with a modest level of dragon shard acquisition rate, that brings it down pretty substantially. If the scenario you’re describing is part of an alt army scenario where you aren’t playing them regularly, then I say it’s good that it should take that long. Main crafters should have an advantage over alt army crafters who aren’t 100% maximizing every single alt.

Are you doing the dirt at 7pm on a Tuesday or something? Are you max zoom in on your minimap? Are all your characters alchemy and enchanting on the mob drop ones (I’ll admit the alchemy decay one and one of the enchanting ones suck, I was never able to find good sources for those)? Even on undergeared alts in season 1, I never had any issues killing mobs. I don’t know what to tell you other than you should have looked/take a look at your routing, because it straight up 100% objectively just doesn’t take that long if you’re not alt tabbing or getting distracted constantly. It feels like someone in classic complaining about the theramore to ashenvale flight time, and then finding out they don’t have the azshara flight path.

Your hour long estimation sounds like you need to pick better farming spots, and does not reflect the experience of someone doing it reasonably optimally.

I think we’ve already been over why some sort of barrier to entry is good, specifically for crafting. 1 month just doesn’t seem long enough for there to be a healthy ratio of crafters to customers. Also, I thought it was fun to figure out each week where the best place was to spend my points, or looking forward to what I was unlocking the next week.

Yeah, I was more just pointing out that people are overly focused on the “max” aspect of it, when the benefit can be pretty negligible. Take JC for example, since August I’ve done 6927 JC orders, and 52 of those have been for any of the trinkets.

Yes, I know what you are saying. As I said, you are looking at this exclusively from a gear crafting bias - so not sure you are looking beyond just “impact on you personally”.

My point is there are other things to spend mettle on other than gear. Most professions have interim materials and/or consumables whose profit margins are based on inspiration procs, multicraft, and resourcefulness. Imagine if all of a sudden you “guarantee inspiration” (i.e. spend mettle).

If you come at it from a gear only perspective, you are working either on a scarcity mindset (i.e. not wanting to “waste” mettle), or unrealistic expectations (i.e. 1 big payout on a guaranteed single gear craft to hyper-maximize gold per mettle).

In either case, this is why I said a lot of this stems from gear being BoP. If gear were BoE you likely wouldn’t be hoarding mettle as even gear would fall into the same category as consumables, interim reagents, etc. (i.e. always an avenue to spend it).

Being unable to hoard Concentration might help folks who are exclusively gear crafters currently hoarding mettle. It really does nothing for those of us actively spending mettle regularly or semi-regularly (pool for a long craft session).

Right, inspiration/rng is the issue here. If the sole option was, “it takes any of us X mettle to do the craft, so it costs Y”, it would literally be the same thing as what you are saying with Concentration. It was just a binary choice since the current system only has 2 insight skill bonuses, so you either have the skill or you don’t.

The risk of being scammed came from lying about inspiration.

Intentionally left those out as it was hard to measure acquisition rate. It was/is believed to be a catch up mechanic. You probably weren’t seeing a ton of them drop week on week if you were keeping up.

Even if you take the 544 and divide by 18 (assuming 4 shards per week you funneled into 1 prof) it reduces it from 38 to 30 weeks which is still 6 months. I frankly think that is overly generous on acquisition rate.

Still that might account for how I did it in ~30-32 weeks despite my math coming out to 38 weeks above.

Again you are looking at this from a 10.2 lens, not a 10.0/10.1 lens.

In 10.0 you might do a full loop around a zone to find 4 or 5 dirt piles and/or treasures which bad rng could yield 0 of the KP items.

You likely were not walking into an area and 1 pulling all of the mobs because you are the only person there. Also, some items were far easier than others (e.g. alchemist phlegm - hard vs. tailoring stitchery - very easy).

You also weren’t the only BS (whatever) in an area doing the weekly profession “go out in the world and kill things quest”, or “collect y and bring it back”.

So yeah that’s why I said 40 min - 1 hr.

Your 30 minutes is a best case scenario that was not common back when the grind was in full swing for everyone.

Sure yeah, now I can walk from dirt to dirt pile without even hopping on a mount because they are so close. This was not a thing in 10.0.

Agree here. Not advocating 0 months either. 5-7 months is too long though. Especially at 30 minutes per week per toon (using your estimate) and never missing a week.

As I said in a different post, even dropping the treasures/mobs would drop that per week time commitment dramatically and make it an easier pill to swallow.

I still think you should be able to max out the profession within 3 months.

2 Likes

Because that’s what the change is trying to address.

Yes, I am well aware. Trust me, crafting items to sell on the AH is something that I do/did. I understand that there are other things to spend mettle on besides crafting gear. That does not change the fact that mettle can also be used on gear crafts for (usually) more gold per mettle used than on material crafts. The trade-off being that you have to sit in trade chat, and advertise/talk to customers. The other upside is that it requires very little gold investment upfront. For some people that trade-off is worth it, for others it isn’t.

You were seemingly against the Shadowlands Legendary model, so I’m not sure why you’re trying to push BOE items. That just opens them up to even more market manipulation.

If you’re actively spending mettle/concentration, then it literally doesn’t matter if there’s a cap. If it has 0 impact on you, and a positive impact on others, why are you trying to argue against it?

There is currently only 1 insight skill bonus, and yes, that’s part of why I’m saying concentration is better, is because it’s granular. As long as you can make a rank 4 item naturally, you can make a rank 5 item, the only difference will be how many of them you can make.

I guess you just don’t craft gear. The larger scam issue was that people were paying for rank 5, and only getting back rank 4. I regularly heard stories from customers who used other crafters, and my friends on other servers, of crafters telling people to set rank 4 for the rank 5 guarantee option, and then the crafter would send them back a rank 4 item, and put them on ignore. It was bad actors taking advantage of the situation.

If you were only getting 4 shards a week, then you weren’t playing very much on that character.

No, I’m not, the experience was the same in 10.0. I’ve been doing professions the whole expansion. Again, I’m sorry you apparently weren’t doing it very efficiently, but just because you can’t do something, doesn’t mean that nobody else can.

By removing inspiration, which is why it is there in that section. Again inspiration and mettle/concentration impacts more than gear.

Correct. So like I said, you choose to sit on mettle for a higher gold per mettle ratio. Your choice.

It does have a negative impact on me. I cannot pool it until I want to do a long crafting session. It will be use it or lose it.

It also will have negative perception problems - multicraft/resourcefulness are very good stats. Unless you can only click craft a couple of times per day. It is literally the same thing over the long haul (days, weeks, months), but that will not be the perception to the average person.

Very different.

Legendaries were gated to crafters due to gold sink primarily. DF crafting is gated by calendar time. You can counter-play gold (more farming/ah’ing), but unless you have a time machine, you are stuck grinding in DF.

Frankly they could’ve solved SL legendaries by requiring R1 through R6 upgrades, rather than being able to skip ahead if you had enough Soul Ash or Cinders. It would’ve meant that the market for R1’s didn’t die instantly, the moment someone could craft R2. It was most apparent with R5 that was DoA, since R6 was available almost immediately (soul cinder cost). If upgrades had been required, then R1 would still not be “wanted”, but by being mandatory to go R1,2,3,4,5,R6 then there would’ve at least been some market for it (albeit small). Or even just reclaim it for a subset of the mats to help curb that giant gold sink.

Nothing to do with legendaries being BoE.

The manipulation came from lack of competition due to the monstrous gold sink to enter the market if you didn’t keep up from day 1 as a crafter. Nothing to do with BoE.

Not sure what to tell you here. This is not the majority, by a long mile. I’m really not sure you understand crafting at all.

I literally just tested this on live…

  • Public orders cannot set quality - so non-issue.
  • Private orders for R5 - crafters cannot click create without guaranteeing R5 (either via insight, or max rank mats, or both depending on current crafter skill).
  • Private orders for R4 - have the same restriction when trying to craft R4. You cannot click create unless you can at least guarantee R4 via material quality, skill, and/or insight.
  • At any point a craft can proc into +1 rank with sufficient skill and inspiration.

So the scam has to be…

  1. a crafter convincing a customer to place r4 order (i.e. luring with explanation of inspiration and proc)
  2. crafter has sufficient skill to minimally guarantee r4 (else crafter couldn’t click create at all)
  3. crafter uses a resourcefulness tool for the mats back rather than inspiration tool to try to reduce number of attempts (benefiting crafter not the customer).

Given inspiration is not 100% guaranteed, it likely would take multiple attempts. I bet some of those “scam” reports were just legit bad rng with inspiration tool, especially if customer does not understand professions.

So yes, this is absolutely an inspiration problem. The promise of r5 via proc and convincing folks to place an r4 order.

If inspiration didn’t exist today, this would not be a thing. The “scam” is lying about how much inspiration you have (either not a rare tool vs. green, using resourcefulness instead of inspiration tool, or straight up lying about a promise of using insight, etc.).

If you are making the claim that crafters straight up lie about using an insight and still convince you to set it to r4, then not sure what to tell you. Frankly, if concentration existed today even with its scaling nature, and also inspiration, then if anything you could get conned to even put in r3 orders.

So yes, this is absolutely an inspiration problem. Only inspiration. If the customer is that clueless about professions that it doesn’t even take a lie about how inspiration works, then frankly this trick will work on them in WW too - “set it to r3 I’m capped on Concentration”.

So yes - the issue goes away without inspiration/rng, or if the item was just BoE, or just allow public orders with rank.

Not sure what to tell you here. This is just false. We can agree to disagree then that a fully caught up toon on KP (i.e. never missed a week) was averaging 4+ dragon shards per week.

So have I. Multiple times actually for my stable of tailors/alchemists and multiples of the other professions on different servers. Started at 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2.

YMMV wildly depending on population and/or patch.

I’m happy for you that you seemingly do not know how to measure your time.

Given that I have been maintaining spreadsheets since launch to track all aspects of professions, I trust my numbers. So let’s just agree to disagree here too.

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If they keep current skill tuning, then it won’t be quite as impactful as you seem to be imagining. All the profs I’ve looked at have guaranteed r3 mat crafts with r3 mat inputs, that’s ofcourse subject to tuning.

Even if the skill gaps are the same as they are in dragonflight, you won’t run into any issues until you craft more than 2016 a week. If that’s the case, then /shrug. Blizzard shouldn’t design systems with goblins in mind, except to mitigate what we can do. The same way blizzard shouldn’t design the race for Echo and Liquid, the system should be designed for 99.9% of players, rather than the 0.1% goblins.

I wouldn’t describe what I do as sitting on mettle.

That’s clearly the intention, and has clear and previously discussed economic benefits for the overwhelming majority of the playerbase.

The average person isn’t crafting thousands of potions/enchants/materials as is.

If you don’t think people manipulate the price of items on the AH, especially on server specific items, I’m not sure what to tell you.

You clearly don’t craft gear, otherwise you’d know that you can recraft an item without a customer ever seeing it, until you get the inspiration proc. This is how most of the fulltime crafters do item guarantees. I have them send it as a rank 4 minimum quality, and then I recraft it, with my mats and mettle, inside the order. They never have to send an extra order. They still get a 525 item on the first order. I save mettle. I’m able to charge a lower price than the people using insights, the customer still gets their 525 item. Both parties win.

Since you seem to be unable to understand, let me walk you through the scam. We are talking about the specific instance where a scam crafter asks a customer to set the item to rank 4 in order to receive a max rank item. In this scenario, the crafter promises a max rank item on the first order. It is perfectly possible for legitimate crafters to promise a rank 5 on the first order, ask the customer to set the order to rank 4, and successfully get rank 5 to the customer every time without using an insight. Please understand that as you read through the scenario.

1.) A customer posts asking for a 525 item.
2.) The scammer whispers the customer, telling them that 100% on the item will cost X gold, and they should set the minimum quality to rank 4.
3.) The customer sends a personal order to the scammer and follows instructions.
4.) The scammer accepts the order, hits craft, the item does not proc, and INSTEAD OF HITTING THE RECRAFT OPTION TO ROLL IT UNTIL IT PROCS LIKE THEY SAID THEY WOULD they instead hit the complete order button, and the customer receives a rank 4 item.
5.) The customer paid for a 525 guarantee item, and did not receive it. That is the common version of the scam. The scammer promising them a guaranteed item, and then not delivering. It has nothing to do with using a resourcefulness tool instead of an inspiration tool.

With concentration, this problem literally evaporates in a couple weeks. The only way to get a 525 embellished item is with concentration, which is 100%. The legitimate crafters never, ever, under any circumstance, have an incentive to tell customers to set the order to rank 4 on the minimum quality when they are selling their concentration. It is infinitely easier for customers to understand this, they set rank 5 and they get rank 5.

Were you just not doing raids, or any of the 30 minute rares? That would explain it.

It’s a common thing that comes/came up, and I literally would hit the in-game stopwatch and fly out from valdrakken to start. Consistently under 30 minutes.

Maybe I should clarify: I’m not saying that it doesn’t take you that long, I’m saying that it shouldn’t that you that long. If someone told me they’re wiping in follower dungeons, I’d suggest they perhaps do something a bit more optimally and that they should not be dying in that mode, but I’m not going to deny that it is happening to them.

Omg samesies :smiley:

It’s not predicated on inspiration existing, it’s predicated on inspiration being the best way to guarantee most items. Inspiration existing doesn’t necessarily make it the best in all situations.

Let’s take a look at adaptive dracothyst bracers in seasons 2 and 3. The cobraskins were 60-110k at the start of those seasons. Taking a price of 75k per recraft attempt, you’d have to charge 118k for a guarantee just to break even if you were doing it through inspiration. Much better to just charge them 25k and use the insight. With a lower inspiration chance, or a higher cost of materials, the math can easily shift in the insight’s favor. If inspiration were no longer the best way for crafters to do a guarantee, and was only there for people who were feeling lucky, then the problem also goes away, as crafters are not incentivized to tell their customers to set to rank 4 on guarantee orders.

We’ve seen what increased material prices can do, let’s take a look at what lowering inspiration would do. Let’s use leather armor as an example. It maxes out at 44.3% inspiration, and then is 29.3% insp with a resourcefulness tool. Let’s say it costs 800g per recraft, and you’re getting 10k for a guarantee. At max inspiration, you’re getting about 682g per mettle, so 34k per insight equivalent basically. at 29.3% insp, you’re getting around 414g per mettle, so around 20.6k per insight. Drop that to 20% and you’re only getting 14k per insight. Very quickly it’s becoming not worth it to roll instead of just using the insight when you lower the inspiration percentage.

It would not exist if inspiration were not the best way. People respond to incentives, if it were not optimal to do inspiration rolls for guarantees, people wouldn’t go through the extra work and would just use insights.

Though I think the devs removing inspiration is a good thing, as it prevents it from ever being a possibility.

They have said, repeatedly and in very explicit terms, that public work orders are there for people who don’t care about quality and for leveling crafters. It is not meant to be the main way to get your items done if you want max rank. They want people to be social and talk with each other and submit personal orders. It’s by design, it would upend their design goal of social professions if public orders were the main way people got items.

Yeah, I started being very careful with that very quickly. Sometimes it won’t even change to the complete order screen after I hit craft, and I haven’t been able to figure out any rhyme or reason why it does it. It’s not ElvUI, as I don’t use that.

Here are my broad concerns with the new system:

  1. Inspiration was used in more than just gear crafting. So you will need to juggle numbers around everywhere. Doable, but a concern. This change seems entirely gear crafting centric.
  2. The barrier to entry for crafting was not mettle, it was KP. I have seen no changes to the acquisition rate (nor has it been mentioned). At least, you could buy your way into the SL legendary market (albeit super expensive), but here you need a time machine. Those profession chores should/can not last longer than a patch.
  3. Finding a crafter can be difficult in low pop realms (or in general)
    a. Not enough people in realm
    b. Trade chat is faction specific so 90/10 realms on low pop faction is bad (even 50/50 can cut your customer/crafter base in half). You may not know a crafter exists.
    c. Going forward, you not only need to find a crafter, but a crafter with enough concentration on hand. Rather than “spread the love around” more likely than not this will lead to frustration.
    d. Spamming trade chat is not fun. Not sure what your crafting fantasy is, this isn’t mine.
    e. public orders still cannot specify rank
    f. public/private orders are realm specific (technically not faction specific - but again refer to b)
  4. Unlikely that a level 1 (or whatever breakpoint is) with full concentration will be able to compete with a max KP crafter. Their 1 craft to my 10 (or whatever), their low stats (multicraft, resourcefulness, etc.) to my max stats.
  5. Lack of pooling concentration (like mettle) will mean prices will stay artificially inflated the entire xpac (e.g. every patch item upgrade/new recipes/large swathes of population requiring gear).
  6. This will absolutely lead to mass alt armies. In the past it was mostly transmutes (and other such cds) that caused this, now every crafting profession will have such a cd (concentration).
  7. The daily CDs moving to 10 days for alchemy, and 30 for tailoring was one of the best things to come out of the profession revamp. This feels like a regression. Use it or lose it was less of a concern with mettle as you could pool it (for long crafting sessions), or proc the needed skill via inspiration.

I’ll add to this list as I come up with more. Some of these are not unique to concentration (or lack of inspiration), but will be made worse by it.

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