Problems with the Haranir

Lore Story Forum
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The Haranir are a major plot hole in the story. Their existence contradicts major elements and leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

  1. If the Haranir are a “missing link” between trolls and Night Elves, why didn’t the trolls who turned in Haranir instead become Night Elves?
  2. If the Haranir are a “missing link” between trolls and Night Elves, why didn’t Elune guide them to become Night Elves or let them remain trolls?
  3. If there was a special job, why didn’t Elune just give it to the trolls or some of the Night Elves?
  4. How was the process interrupted?
  5. Why was the process interrupted?
  6. Why didn’t the early Night Elves or Elune say anything about the Haranir?
  7. Why didn’t the Wild Gods tell others about the Haranir or vice versa? And that includes the August Celestials and the Loa.
  8. Why didn’t Eonar or her keeper Freyja say anything about the Haranir?
  9. Why are there no Haranir in the Emerald Dream?
  10. Why didn’t the Dragon Aspects, or even just the Green or Red Dragonflights, mention the Haranir?
  11. If the Haranir are tied to world trees through the roots, why didn’t they receive the blessings the Dragon Aspects gave to Nordrassil?
  12. Why didn’t any Elementals or the Elemental Lords mention them, especially the Earth Elemental Lord Therazane? She’d be able to find out about them and has no allegiance to them or reason to protect their secret.
  13. Why didn’t Deathwing notice them or do anything about them in thousands of years he could sense things throughout the earth of the planet?
  14. Why didn’t the Old Gods mention them or do anything about them, given their ability to see many futures and being big on “secrets beneath the earth”?
  15. And finally, if the others “just didn’t know, how did the Haranir keep their existence secret from all of the groups mentioned above!?
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Hopefully someone can help me find it but there’s a Haranir prophecy about end worlding events that convinced them to remain isolated until the time is right.

…I suspect a Bronze Dragon is involved, too many world ending timelines for such future sight. :dracthyr_comfy_bronze:

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Honestly, while these kinds of hidden groups are always awkward to integrate into a long running story, the answer to a large swathe of those is “why would they mention them?” Like realistically, in what context would Therazane or the Loa be like “anyway forget what I was saying did you know there’s some weirdos underground living in a hole who think they’re the keepers of the world trees but don’t actually really do anything?”

Bc that’s seems to be a key part of the haranir story so far; despite the religious significance of their duty to them, they don’t really do anything impactful from down there, they just react to developments. “Oh, one of the trees is corrupted and died, that’s weird.” But they don’t like, come up and really do anything about that that would impact the surface.

On the earlier notes, I really wish the writers would skip the missing link thing and just go the “common ancestor” route where both trolls and nelves diverged from the haranir. It mitigates some of the… grosser subtext of the night elves being more “evolved” than the trolls and it also makes the whole absence more plausible and less notable if the haranir are just a small subset that didn’t evolve in either direction rather than an intermediate step locked in stasis.

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  1. They lived deep underground, far from well of eternity influence
  2. I think Haranir ‘belong’ exclusively to Azeroth. Don’t touch my stuff i don’t touch yours - type situation. Or it’s just environment of Harandar shaped them like that.
  3. again, I don’t think Elune had anything to do with it. If she and Azeroth have common goal why would she stop her take some cool trolls for herself?
  4. ^
  5. ^
  6. Blizzard will probably say Kaldorei had no idea Haranir ever existed. But I pray that Cenarion Circle or at least Malfurion knows about them and keeps this secrets for safety’s sake. Malfurion was able to move through the tree roots of the world years before the Haranir got it as a passive. it wouldn’t make sense if the guy who study the world trees and explore Emerald Dream for +10,000 years didn’t know about them.
  7. there are two options they saw no reason to tell us or they are keeping it a secret.
  8. this is related to the question above. It’s a very secret information so they keep it in small circle. Aman’thul so 90% of the titan forces were against uncontrolled nature. 10 seconds after they found this place Keppers would’ve installed 20 forges of creation and other evil wire stuff there.
  9. Looks like they’re forbiden to going ANYWHERE.
  10. For years they are all full titan team. I don’t think they know about this place, maybe some nature magic keeps Harandar hidden.
  11. maybe they got it, we don’t know.
  12. why would she say anything? especially us. Elementals care little about mortals. If we can ask him about everything, she or neptulon would’ve taken us to Core Azeroth already in Cataclysm.
  13. Just like he could have attacked Coreway right away. there are four options, (again) he didn’t know about its existence, some magic was blocking him, he had other ways to complete his plans, he didn’t care.
  14. they sold us only unimportant information, - we don’t spill the real tea everybody, especially mortals - old gods, probably.
    15.they couldn’t know about you if you didn’t exist. - this is probably the most accurate answer. The idea for Haranir certainly arose during the DF, so they couldn’t be more closely related to anything that came before.

My answers are pure speculation, so we have to wait another month for the answers. Although I doubt Blizzard would answer even half of this questions.

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They actually arent, so far. People just made up once and the gossip spread. Blizzard did not put what they actually are

they have being flip flop for a while about them, dont know if they will answer

Cuz blizzard wanted another cool night elf that they did themselves

Is more about “making THEIR mark” into the game, and not using old silly stuff from old Devs

Because blizzard doesnt like trolls to be important figures in warcraft, only to be cannonfolder and villains

Because they never existed before

This is the problem with retroactivelly shoving crap in the story like it was always there

Remember the Jailer, its the same thing

Yeah, by not existing
:dracthyr_lulmao:

Imagine having to break your own lore to add a dumb night elf copy, unreal

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This has literally bothered me for years. I absolutely do not think it was intentional, but there are absolutely some…issues…with the idea that elves are the non-primitive, civilized product of evolution.

My headcanon had always been that trolls and elves both share a common ancestor, and that is what I will continue to RP.

And, yes, the second part also makes sense. If two people went in different directions (I like to imagine the elves went the arcane route, and trolls stuck with the whatever we call ‘nature’ route), then people are going to focus on where they’re going.

And, yeah, some of this has to involve a suspension of disbelief. Why didn’t the Dragon Aspects mention the dracthyr during the War of the Ancients or the Cataclysm, why is no map actually accurate, etc.

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Out of the aspects, only Neltharion and Malygos knew about the Dracthyr. And well, Neltharion went insane and Malygos still believed Neltharion was his trusted bestie until… you know. At that point he also went insane then died 10k years later trying to siphon all magic from Azeroth into the nether, which would have destroyed the planet if he was successful. Therefore by the time of Cata, the only two aspects that knew about them were either dead as they were an enemy or our current enemy.

You could argue that Nozdormu knew as well because time magic but that would open up a whole can of worms as you could just say “why didn’t Nozzy do X to prevent Y” from happening. But that was the whole point of the infinite dragonflight so it is understandable why non-infinite Nozdormu would not go down that rabbit hole. As going down that rabbit hole will most definitely lead to Murozond.

tbh, I can suspend my disblief on this one given that there have been real life modern maps that seem to forget that New Zealand and / or Tasmania exists. Therefore it should be understandable if a landmass wasn’t on any maps but suddenly they are.

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My question is… What are the origins of the Haranir? Night Elves didn’t start planting World Trees until after the War of the Ancients, so were Haranir even really a thing before, or were they just hanging under the roots of the very first world tree, Elun’ahir and their culture exploded to expand into all the others trees when they were planted?

Or maybe they were a group of Night Elves that went off to seek out the roots of the world trees to ensure they remain healthy?

Idk. It just all seems weird. I wish they were just a splinter group of Night Elves that were long thought dead.

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Honestly I could halfway imagine all of these sticking points just being handwaved under a blanket “they’re Azeroth’s own adherents, so Azeroth herself has been generally shielding them from detection by all of those other agencies the whole time” reasoning.

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The Haranir for what it’s worth call themselves Wild Elves in their Flirt Emote.

They if they are anything are either a Splinter Group of Night Elves, a Splinter Group of Dark Trolls or that Splinter Group of Amani that the Amani spoke of that they mistook the Night Elves for.

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It would have being so simple and easy, its literally what happens in wow lore all the time

Night elves turn into another kind

Night elf → Blood elf
Night elf → Naga
Night elf → Nightborne
Night elf → Satyr

So obviously it should be
Night elf → Haranir

But the devs want to their OWN special thing, their OWN UNIQUE stuff, that isnt tied with anything else, they need to make it NEW, cause old lore is stinky

Same crap with dracthyr, they could have just used a group of drakonid who were experimented on to have wings and a visage form, but NOOOOOOOO, lets break the lore and make up some twink dragons instead

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♪You ask me why I won’t choose you…
“Haranir”.
You really wanna know?♫

♪You’ve spent millennia in the Rootlands
Burying your crown into the loam
While the world above burned countless times.♫
♪You were burrowing into the quiet,
While your Kaldorei and Zandalari cousins rose
You just chose to lay small and lay low.♫

♪Now you ask, for my faith.
Now you ask, for my banner.
…But where were YOU when the first horns blowed?♫

♪ I’VE GOT IRON ON MY SPEED DIAL! ♫
♪Vrykul Giants waking to their Jarls’ call.♫
♪Arakkoa in their blazing spires,
Solar wisdom pouring through the halls.♫
♪I’ve got Kaheti weaving silent spells,
Sixteen thousand years of their severed chains.♫
♪So tell me why I’d stake my only lifeline:
On a WHIMPER, that only slept beneath the veins?♫

♪You talk of roots and of patient growing.
But I marched with the Giants, against the molten rain.♫
♪I watched as a Spider Dynasty betray their makers:
Clawing their names out of the Old Gods’ chains.♫
♪I’ve seen the sunrise caged in crystal,
Feathered prophets reading every flame.♫
♪And you, Dark Trolls?
You just clung to your tunnels:
…Hiding from the weight of a name!♫

♪ I’VE GOT IRON ON MY SPEED DIAL! ♫
♪Odyns’ living ramparts walking right
into the storms of death and steel.♫
♪Arakkoa with their blazing insight,
turning daylight into shield and seal.♫
♪I’ve got Kaheti in the blackness,
Spinning counterspells from their broken oaths.♫
♪So why should I trust your silence,
Over those who already faced against their ghosts?♫

♪You had ages (ages)
AGES (ages)
To stand and to be seen.♫
♪While we were forged in the furnace of war,
You just sank into an apathy of green.♫
♪If I want your trust (trust)
Then drag yourself out from that dirt♫
♪Earn a place within Azeroths’ war cry.
I won’t stay buried in the earth.♫
♪If I succumb to your preach of peace,
I would only watch… as our world… DIEEEEEES!♫

< Electric Guitar Solo >

♪ I’VE GOT IRON ON MY SPEED DIAL! ♫
♪A Storm right here in my hand.
Why should I Gamble on Dark Trolls who always ran?♫
♪As our world starts ending:
I shall NEVER Roll your Dice!♫
♪I’ve got Giants, Birds, and Spiders:
They’ve already paid THE PRICE! ♫

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Technically, we already know the answer to where the Haranir come from: they’re just another clan of Dark Trolls: the same group of weaklings that the Kaldorei originally split off from. Only in this case, The Haranir!Dark Trolls are massive hipocrites:

Like all Troll species, they worship the Loa who only answer to those who are strong and of great conviction. However the Dark Trolls were considered to be the absolute weakest of all Troll Tribes that no Loa would actively seek them out. This leads into their Quests within the Den highlighting the Haranirs’ past on Mount Hyjal: asking for direction and a great purpose… while also ACTIVELY AVOIDING THE WILD GODS LIKE MALORNE who were openly approaching other Dark Troll clans such as the Kaldorei!Dark Trolls.

Than when all of the Dark Trolls heard the call of Elune directing them towards the center of Kalimdor: where they would find the Well of Eternity the very same “Higher Purpose” that would put the Dark Trolls at the top of the foodchain within Troll Society as Elves: The Haranir!Dark Trolls IGNORED ELUNE and decided to go underground in pursuit of the echoing voice of Azeroths’ World Soul.

When they finally get downstairs: The Haranir find absolutely nothing down there except lingering traces of the World Soul because it moved elsewhere. Instead of doing the sensible thing and traveling back upstairs out of this dangerous subterranean hellhole, probably trying to negotiate with the Kaldorei!Dark Trolls into joining their pilgrimage to the Well of Eternity and finally getting that “Higher Purpose”, these idiots decided to stubbornly stay in this anal fissure of a zone out of spite.

That’s the absolute Lore of the Haranir: they’re pathetic Dark Trolls who couldn’t get the attention of a Loa, refused to talk with the Wild Gods of the mountain that they lived on, IGNORED ELUNE who gave them a chance at divinity on a silver platter, and now they are just a bunch of creepy self-important basement-dwellers huffing their own copium thinking that they are the ones running the universe.

14

Oh, so you arent caught up in the news, that’s awkward.

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I’m familiar with the “Propaganda” that Zul’jan saw in that cinematic, and I’m strictly using the term Propaganda here in its’ most accurate sense: because the Dark Trolls are such pathetic losers wanting to do anything to make themselves seem better; they would actively lie EVEN TO THEMSELVES to try and paint their own history in a better light.

Their modern day descendants are only reciting the propaganda that was written and treating it like gospel. But put the questlines and the quest text up against any Lore buff: and you’d see the reality as clear as day.

The Haranir are Dark Trolls: they’re from the same 1:1 stock as the Kaldorei originally came from. They have no direct connection as a “shared ancestor” with the other Troll nations, in-fact the Haranir existed at the SAME TIME as the other Trolls; and were just as much losers back then.

This whole Haranir narrative is ultimately just Steve Danusers’ failed attempt to parasitize World of WarCraft into his failed MMO Kingdoms of Amalur and injecting a Magic System, Lore, and Narrative that WoW was fundamentally not built for.

Why do you think that the Haranir are SOMEHOW able to use all of these different types of magic that they realistically should NOT be able to do? If a race cannot attract the attention of a Loa or Wild God: what makes them able to resist the whispers of demons to become Warlocks in the first place? How can you shapeshift into an animal if you don’t have the blessing of a Wild God?

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No buddy, they are night elves who evolved into harandar goobers because druid magic

That is the original lore, that was the lore printed in the artbook, they just decided to change after the launch cause wow writers suck balls.

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“Hmm… and which Loa do you bargain with?”

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“Missing Link” refers to fossils, not living organisms. What the Haranir said was that the three races are descended from a common ancestor, that doesn’t say one is the “predecessor” of the other. (I have a post over on “Haranir Reveal the Truth (12.0.7 spoilers)” where I note that there are "no ancient organisms”)

As how the Haranir were a secret from the “main races”? I guess it comes down to do you think that every race on Azeroth should already be known to the Alliance/Horde races? I think you can take it as a premise of the game (now, in the past, and moving forward) that the answer is “no”. And I don’t think it is a real problem. You come up with a number of places where “we” “might have known”, but I don’t see anyplace where “had to have known” makes the premise no work.

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Yeah but we got this and it sucked.

Do you feel that High/Blood elves are gross and insulting to Night Elves? Evolved does not mean better just different. If Quel’dorei could change physiologically from Kaldorei without it being insulting why can’t it be the same for Nelves to Trolls? I think this is on you man.

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I set the bar too high… :face_with_bags_under_eyes: