Those goalposts you keep moving must be getting heavy…
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This doesn’t prove anything
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click my character :), been ret forever, it’s horrible on retail, remove instruments of retribution
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Oh it wasnt saying to go ret cuz it is fun or even viable. I log into retail from time to time and when I do, I leave disappointed.
The buff was too much. It should have never happened. If they can leave fury warrior at the bottom of the meters in phase 1, and then middle of the pack in phase 4 without the legendary and middle/upper with it, they can certainly leave high utility ret where its all expansion.
You’re complaining about Fury being middle of the pack without a legendary, but also saying that Retribution would be fine without the taunt glyph, which would put us middle of the pack WITH a legendary, and among the worst DPS without it, including TAJ and all our set bonuses.
You say warrior doesn’t scale, yet they are going from bottom DPS to among the top DPS throughout the expansion. That quite literally means they are among the best scaling classes in the game.
You say they could’ve left Ret where it was in Phase 2, but Ret was not just bottom DPS, we were bottom DPS by a mile. Blizzard themselves said the reason for not buffing Retribution was representation, and then they changed their mind a month later. Wonder what changed? People stopped bringing Ret, and Rets began rerolling, and Ret logs continued to drop further and further below everyone else.
Let me remind you where Retribution was at before the buffs happened:
This image is Thorim statistics from January (all%; 99% is much, much worse)
https://i.imgur.com/7T18hiY.png
Arcane Mage and BM Hunter were both outperforming us, and both bring our 3% damage buff we needed to stay viable. We were only tied with Arms.
We needed a buff just to be able to TIE the other classes at the very very bottom (fury, feral at that time, we were significantly below Sub/BM/Frost which aren’t even real PVE specs). It made us barely viable, and Arcane was still the better raid DPS pick for 3% damage post-buff. Most raids already had 4 raid CDs for Algalon from prot/holy as well, which was our one claim to fame. We were forced to play DSAC, which made our DPS even worse.
You say buffed Retribution being in the Top 5 is too OP, yet when Fury is doing the same exact DPS as buffed Retribution (and more cleave), it’s too weak in your eyes. If you’re going off sims, without P2 buffs, Retribution would be low ~15k dps with SM and low ~14k dps without it, so they already prove my point, but you can’t make class balance changes based on sims that vary in accuracy… so you should just wait for some actual log data.
Your bias shows so heavily. Ret/Fury are basically tied in sim DPS, yet you say Retribution is the #2 melee, and you say Fury is “middle/upper”.
Retribution isn’t going to be stacked if the sim is accurate, and it isn’t going to affect other class’s representation, so the only thing you achieve by nerfing Ret is to make a lot of people have a lot less fun.
Why are we talking about Arms Warriors? They should get a buff too.
I don’t think this guy is very serious with his arguments.
Wanted to clarify for the people claiming its “50 more dps as ret.” The sheet/sim going around that people are citing specifically uses an Overpower spec that almost no one in the top 100 uses and has Troll racial in order to boost the warrior sim 400 dps. Load that profile and change the race to any non-troll race and use the normal fury spec that all the top warrior’s use and Ret BiS w/ Smourne is about 450 more dps than Warrior BiS with Smourne.
Saying that using a racial is cheating, come on man that’s a stretch. All the sims use their best racials, this sheet is to show maximum DPS output, and you can race change now so, whatever. Combining the DPS loss from removing Troll racial entirely, and adding it to the relatively minor DPS loss of overpower, in order to make it seem like the sim numbers are super busted, now that’s disingenuous of you. Oh and by the way, Orc sims about 100 dps worse than Troll, so I know you picked a race with literally no DPS racial in order to prove your point.
I’ve been looking into this overpower stuff lately, just to see if it really holds merit. That was your one argument that I felt could hold water. It is true that not many warriors do this type of gameplay, but some rare parses do, and who knows, it could maybe become more popular in ICC. One of the warriors who helps me with my sheet has informed me that the Overpower spec is somewhere in the ballpark of 75-100 dps by itself. He said “if you lose a lot more than 100, something is wrong”.
Links for proof:
https://tinyurl.com/FuryOverpowerSpec 16510 dps
https://tinyurl.com/FuryRegularSpec 16416 dps (-94)
(added 20 start rage to regular spec from imp zerker rage)
https://tinyurl.com/ICCsimulationDPS
Added a row for Warriors w/o Overpower, just for you.
In most scenarios, Warrior w/o Overpower, occupies the same DPS ranking as Overpower.
Most warriors consider this too small of a DPS gain to be worth the effort, apparently. If it was such a big DPS gain, then more Warriors would be doing it, plain and simple. That small of a DPS loss doesn’t really change Fury’s situation. I’ve added a note to the sheet about this, and will probably add either a new row or an annotation including the sim link for non-overpower spec. So… can we put the overpower thing to bed now?
Also, since you’ve made this post, Warriors have optimized their slam usage with Tier 10, and gained about 75 dps on all lengths. Fury also scales a lot better than most classes with Ruby Sanctum gear, and by that point will be either higher than, or about equal to, Ret AM on every length.
On top of that, anger management on the Fury sim is reportedly bugged, and it causes the sim to do less DPS for the time being (I have no idea how much), so the Fury sim numbers may go even higher in the coming weeks. Considering this, and the slam optimizations, it just goes to show why you should not be doing class balance discussions based on these numbers.
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Did I?
Pretty sure I said
I was just pointing out that top tier guilds can safely run bad specs because their raid is usually already 30+% above the fight tuning requirements for DPS.
That’s not “arms is fine guys!” It’s trash compared to the dedicated PvE specs outside of cleave.
Ret would be… ok, if you give them everything they wanted (including shadowmourne)… trash if their guild doesn’t.
Classes shouldn’t need a legendary to be ok.
Fury is ok without one.
But, but tied with ret is an insult! They sometimes press buttons that don’t do DPS!
Do they have an arms warrior in their actual raid with all their mains at the start of a tier (when it’s actually being taken seriously) before they go to a bajillion splits? I’m guessing not.
It proves that some guy in BEEF BAR is playing arms in their splits 2 months into the tier, not much else lol
Oh no, you need a completely uncontested trinket!
I’m more concerned with feral though, tbh. Blizz claimed the changes were to make the spec less complex, did they really need a huge buff to do that? And now they’re predicted to be #1 dps. Revert!
For a guy that claims his warrior is getting guild first shadowmourne anyway, OP sure likes to whine about ret paladins, almost as if he’s not getting that shadowmourne
And shadowmourne, which is at best 10 weeks in, if your guild gives you the first.
That’s a pretty long wait to become “ok” if the buffs were reverted.
And it’s looking like assassination rogues will also be after it, although they get a lot less from it.
Agree here.
The lack of balance changes is the most anti-Classic thing that has happened to Classic. It’s not even close either. It’s the most antithetical thing to a real Classic experience by a mile. We should have been getting numbers tuning in 2019.
The fact that OP is a drooling vegetable doesn’t change that.
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I think they should nerf warriors more and buff ele and balance.
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Youre posting memes and cheese. Arms warrior is the lowest dps spec in the game with no utility that a much better class cannot bring. They have never taken an arms to anything meaningful.
Its a survival hunter with SMourne, you think its fine without? middle bottom of the back for one of the lowest utility classes in the game is good for you? lol
Is it easier to play? Maybe you can improve your numbers if you give Arms a try.
They bring it to their splits and he does top 5 DPS sometimes in 99 percentile DPS boss kills. That’s more meaningful than any of the kills our guilds have. Green and blue parsing players on this forum are more obsessed with optimal play in ToGC than BEEF BAR, KEK! There’s people here playing meta specs that would perform better on easier, off-meta specs and they don’t even consider it because they’ve been so conditioned into sheep.
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No, they dont. No one uses it. You might find one random person rank 200 or something but I went through a bunch of top 100 parses and none use overpower. Not saying there isnt one nestled in there but its suboptimal to run in actual gameplay situations. Its a caveat to the sim conditions where with the settings that you never sunder, never do a bunch of other things, over 180 seconds, that sometimes you can fit overpower in but in reality the condition to actually overpower is that you have both bloodthirst and whirlwind on more than 3 second cooldown, rend is already applied to the target, sunder has long duration left, slam has not procced, and your rage is low. That’s like the planets aligning and while it can sometimes happen, in actual boss fights in raid conditions with raid cooldowns going it almost never done, hence why people opt to put the talent points elsewhere. Good for boosting a sim though.
But yes, Ret getting a 10-12% buff was unwarranted. Had the glyph also reduced the AP coefficient so it was a 5% buff, maybe it would have been more acceptable but everyone knows Ret was great in ICC and it has a lot of utility, brings the 3% buff, and will always have a raid spot. The buff 100% was unwarranted and opened a massive can of worms that entirely broke class ranks.
This is worse than most private server level shinanigans. If we can expect Cataclysm to get the same treatment from official classic then I hope we find out sooner than later as in that case actual private servers will provide a better and more authentic experience… rather than arbitrarily buffing the specs of lead developers on an extremely popular class, like wtf.
But of course, I highly doubt a ret paladin enjoying the benefit of such arbitrary changes could ever be impartial in their understanding of this.
I can go to warcraft logs and sort by 99, 90, 80, and 70 and see arms in in last place, only beating tanks. Im sure its a “me” problem.
If you knew how to properly analyze and comprehend what you’re seeing on logs, you’re understand how inaccurate a representation just glancing at that data really is.
10 ilvl lower on his alt Arms Warrior. Slower kills. Fewer kills, fewer opportunities for good RNG. How much closer do you think these numbers would be if he had a 2:xx kill on Anub? Same gear as his Fury? Almost 40 second faster Northrend Beasts?
You have a weird definition of great that doesn’t seem to apply to warriors. From your posts, warriors are trash while being basically tied for 3rd best single target DPS, but rets being kicked below everyone else would be “great.”
Unless you really think that one or two passive effects are worth a 1200+ DPS tax on ret, but no one else that brings something to the raid.
It’s really easy to see what would happen to ret if we didn’t get that glyph. Turn it off in the sims. It’s bleak.
You aren’t looking for good balance, you are looking for warriors to be best. Rets were never asking to be made best, just not the absolute worst DPS spec.
That’s what the buffs did, and they make us good if we also get a legendary.
The horror.
Youre trying to say that because someone that has been found to do this like spawn extra adds on fights or extend add phases specifically to parse in a top .01% guild somehow means Arms is not that bad?
And you dare say someone else cant analyze or comprehend logs? haha. Look at the 99, 90, 80, and 70 parse stats. Arms is at the bottom.
I never said that a BiS geared character in a rank 1 guild doing cheese can’t put up a better number than some 226 ilvl uhdk in a 25 man normal run with 5x longer boss kills. What I said is Arms is meme tier damage when all the other factors are on the same playing field. Same item level, raid, and palyer, Arms is bad. That is what the parsing stats show. You can’t cherry pick a rank 1 parse for one spec and then compare it to a rank 5000 parse from another be be like “SEE!”
No, they dont. No one uses it. You might find one random person rank 200 or something but I went through a bunch of top 100 parses and none use overpower
You’re right that only an extremely small number do Overpower, and many of them are further down in the rankings, I will admit, I just filtered the rankings looking for it. So, just for you I added an extra row to the sim sheet showing Warrior without overpower spec. Once again, it is only between ~75-100 dps worse than Overpower spec, after you give Regular spec the 20 starting rage from Imp Berserker Rage (that the sim doesn’t cast on it’s own). It really doesn’t change anything. They are the same ranking in almost every single situation. So keep bringing up the Overpower thing all you want, it doesn’t make a difference.
https://tinyurl.com/iccsimulationDPS
Fury may also still increase in the coming weeks if the anger management bug is fixed.
But yes, Ret getting a 10-12% buff was unwarranted. Had the glyph also reduced the AP coefficient so it was a 5% buff, maybe it would have been more acceptable but everyone knows Ret was great in ICC and it has a lot of utility, brings the 3% buff, and will always have a raid spot. The buff 100% was unwarranted and opened a massive can of worms that entirely broke class ranks.
I guess you are just going to ignore everything else I said and continue saying the same things over and over that were already addressed. I clearly showed you why the buff was warranted, and why a nerf is not justified. Retribution performed worse than both of the other 3% damage specs, and along with Arms Warrior, was the worst DPS in the game, and not by a small amount either, even below PvP specs. Even post-buff, Arcane Mage was the higher DPS pick for 3% damage.
Accuse me of bias all you want, I clearly am biased, but that’s rich coming from you Mr. “Ret is #2 melee but Fury is only middle/upper” when they are pretty much tied.
but everyone knows Ret was great in ICC
It wouldn’t have been, though, without these buffs. Like, there is math to prove that. So you have all these Ret players with the expectation they will eventually be good, well that wasn’t actually going to happen until Blizzard intervened. Imagine playing the long term investment Ret Paladin, bottom DPS all game only to be mediocre LOWER middle of the pack in ICC full bis, and bottom DPS if you never get TAJ or an SM. Even if you got full BiS, you would be bottom DPS for the first 2-3 months while you farm Shadowmourne.
You admit that the expectation is for Retribution to deal good damage in ICC, and that is quite true. Now you actually have Retribution sims matching up with people’s expectations and memories of where Retribution should be in ICC, Retribution are finally excited to do damage for once after being mediocre, even post-buff, all game, and you would take that away from Rets without a real justifiable reason for doing so, sending them back down to the bottom/middle. By arguing for removing the buff, you are arguing that Ret should be mediocre DPS the entire expansion, going against your own, and everyone else’s, expectations.
So, why isn’t Retribution going to be as strong as people remember in ICC without P2 buffs? Well I can’t quite put my finger on that, but that is certainly what the sims suggest, that we would’ve been doomed to stay bottom DPS until SM brings us to the lower middle. I think it’s a mix of private server expectations where Ret had bugged interactions, making Ret more powerful than it would have been, and the fact that Retribution in 2010 ICC was and is just an easy class to play, and very hard to screw up rotation-wise.
So your average Retribution could perform very close to optimally without being very skilled, back in the day when many people were unskilled. We see this same sort of effect right now in the WOTLK classic logs from each phase, where Retribution Paladins perform relatively much much better against other classes in all percentiles than they do at the higher 95-99 percentiles. If we look at TOGC logs right now, all percentiles Retribution is Top 6 DPS class, but at the 99th percentile we are pretty close to the bottom (#15 ranked DPS), even with cleave fights in our favor. Retribution in your average raid can perform decently well, but in a min-maxed raid with top performing players, it will be very far down the DPS charts.
Also consider that removing the taunt glyph reintroduces taunt weaving, where Rets would taunt the boss for extra DPS when they could get away with it, and ask for a taunt back, such as Razorscale chains, which is cringe behavior and nobody wants that.
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You are making incorrect assumptions. His top DPS on Jarraxus had the same percentage damage dealt to adds on both of his characters.
He’s not. Is this a coping mechanism you’ve developed when being wrong? Just make stuff up and hope no one checks? I’ll ask again:
I’m just ignoring this because I don’t think it’s possible for you to understand why you can’t look at data and derive a conclusion without proper analysis.
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To be clear, I main a fury warr and am fine with no buffs at this point. While it would be nice to be king, fury will finally be a good dps next phase. After prog is done lol.
However, browns have gotten the short end of the stick throughout wrath.
Ret-buffed due to concerns about viability, scaling, and raid representation.
Feral-buffed due to changes to a bugged proc and “bearweaving” to perform well
Both of these situations have also applied to warriors. Lowest raid representation of a melee class. “Rendweaving” and “Overpowerweaving” to perform at the highest level is literally “bearweaving”. Blizz fixed fiery weapon in a single day, and its a classic authentic bug. Will TAJ get fixed? doubtful.
Honestly, if Aggrend or blizz would just come out and say “yeah, we messed up. we should have addressed warriors just like we did other classes, our bad.” that would be enough. But the clear disparity in how warriors have been treated during wotlk vs other classes is the most frustrating part. I get people are frustrated that warriors were so good in classic/tbc, and that shades their opinion on how warriors deserve to be bad for most of wrath, but that doesn’t sound like a reasonable opinion.
Anyways, browns weren’t kings in 252 like Aggrend claimed. And we won’t be kings in 277 either, but at least we’re in the top 5 
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