Idk what you want at this point. Vanaelia did their best to be reasonable with you and you still persist to accuse anyone that doesn’t cow tow to your view as “Not caring about the other side.” So why are you even here?
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How is that a response to what I just said?
It’s not because there’s nothing worth addressing. You already know that it wasn’t enough of a “”""“loss”"""" because the Horde still holds land that doesn’t belong to them.
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Fine, apparently you want this so badly, I’ll waste my time.
In my opinion, the following are the losses of the Horde, in no particular order.
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Characters. Three of them for certain, four depending on how you count it, I’ll get to that in a minute. It is not really disputable that as a result of this expansion, the Horde no longer has Sylvanas, Nathanos, or Saurfang in its ranks. The Horde’s character roster is already extremely thin compared to the Alliance’s, and for the sake of this terrible plot that nobody wanted, Saurfang died, Sylvanas abandoned the faction, and Nathanos went with her for reasons that are honestly quite stupid. In particular it stings to lose Nathanos because he received A TON of screen time, as if he was being built up to replace Sylvanas, but instead all of the precious character development time in BfA (and some during Legion as well) went to a character that is now gone. In addition, instead of getting a character as well-received as Rastakhan added to the ranks, Horde players were instead forced to watch him die and get his far less interesting daughter instead.
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The war. The Horde managed a single victory that tore the fanbase in half and was packed full of moments to make the player feel like they were the ones in the wrong, slaughtering Night Elves who lamented their deaths as they protected their homeland. Not only that, we learned that they were bled heavily by Night Elf reservists the whole way forward, suffering an 8:1 ratio of losses. After that, the Horde’s war campaign was an absolute joke, featuring quests that were overturned by the Alliance in the next patch, getting played at Dazar’alor and losing the entire Zandalari fleet, and ultimately losing both warfronts and only continuing to exist as a faction thanks to His Grace, Anduin the Moronic. Any Horde player who can count and isn’t delusional knows that the Alliance has been fighting with one hand behind its back the whole war and still won.
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Faction pride. See above “Horde Shame Tally” for a more comprehensive list, but anyone who thought they could continue supporting the Horde as a sympathetic faction was long since disabused of that notion thanks to the events of this expansion. The Horde was portrayed as in the wrong through and through, by story moments large and small, and the “rebellion” storyline was so poorly conceived that they managed to make players feel like schmucks no matter which side they chose. Not only all that, but Horde players played through a story in which their side was utterly incompetent, failing to fix any of the problems that assailed Zuldazar, watching the ally they had come to help fall further and further in spite of the Horde player’s efforts. The war campaign featured a series of moronic quests that barely touched on actually fighting a war, and those that did seek to gain an advantage were promptly overturned by the Alliance’s efforts. Contrast this to the Alliance’s war campaign which - shockingly! - featured a successful plan of sabotage that cleared the way for a raid on the enemy capital.
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A capital city. I can almost hear the screeching about how this doesn’t count because Sylvanas destroyed it to keep it out of the hands of the Alliance. However, this city is still gone, the Forsaken are still refugees squatting in Orgrimmar, and it’s no more inhabitable than Teldrassil is.
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Faction identity. Anyone who thought that the Horde could still be thought of as a sympathetic group was rudely disabused of that notion by the story of BfA. Note that the Horde which was portrayed in BfA, as a confused, bumbling group who fails in every campaign they launch and resorts to atrocities to win battles is in direct contrast to the present, existing description of the Horde that Blizzard themselves have provided. This was supposed to be an expansion which explored how the “Honor Horde” and “Pragmatic Horde” learned how to co-exist and work with each other. Instead, Blizzard drove the wedge so deep that many Horde players harbor more resentment for the “other faction” of Horde players than they do Alliance players. The Horde player base is so deeply divided now that Blizzard can safely ignore us while we squabble with each other instead of demanding better. Not to mention that anybody who played Forsaken to be something more than “hurr durr evil zombie” has seen their race’s themes and identity totally torn up root and branch and given an empty hole in the ground to replace it.
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Motivation and future relevance. I bundled these together because they are two relatively smaller points, but needless to say, it’s hard to feel any kind of motivation or justification going forward. Blizzard has relentlessly gone backwards through the story to whitewash the Alliance’s gray moments and darken the Horde’s, going so far as to take one of the legitimate complaints the Horde had in the Purge and forgive the Alliance for it on our behalf, forcing us to kill survivors of the event in direct aid to the Alliance. Moreover, the Horde is in an utter shambles now, with an uncertain future in its “council” which Baine seems to use as a veil to cloak his leadership in legitimacy, and which still can’t stop the internal strife of the Horde from causing issues as seen in the preview for the new book being released. In such a state of disarray with its hero characters gutted and its faction identity shattered, the ability of the Horde to partake in future, non-faction war content is seriously called into question, and we already seem set to spend time following Alliance characters around in Shadowlands (Tyrande) where we will almost certainly be berated once again.
Now, go ahead. Tell me why none of this counts. Slice each reason apart line by line. Prove to me that I just wasted my time in attempting to provide the reasons you so desperately seemed to want to see.
EDIT: I hate Blizzard’s numbered list formatting.
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The idea that Teldrassil isn’t directly linked to the Horde and the Horde players experience, is quite frankly wrong. It effects them just as much as it effects every single Night Elf player and fan. Especially when every single thread, usually opens with and is entirely about shaming the player base for still trying to enjoy their faction or racial themes in anyway, because blizzard decided to go full idiot with their story.
I mean come on, you yourself literally suggested punishing the Horde with Malfurion and Tyrande being ubergods… but you don’t want them apart of the discussion? Luh fricken mao.
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First of all, thank you. This is the first time I’ve been able to actually know what your points were. Prior to this, it had just been mostly “You should know this already”, which puts up unnecessary roadblocks to conversation.
And I would be happy to have a such a discussion.
But not here. I will open another thread, and with your permission, I’d like to quote this to start.
Because - and I cannot underscore this point enough - this is getting off topic.
In no uncertain terms, THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT THE HORDE. THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT HOW THE STORY OF THE HORDE HAS BEEN HANDLED. THIS IS A THREAD ABOUT HOW THE NIGHT ELF PLAYERS FELT ABOUT THE HANDLING OF TELDRASSIL.
It’s both off-topic and a little callous to take a topic about that and try to change it to how the Horde felt about that, largely if they’re not talking about it in terms of the themes mentioned by the original poster. And I blame myself for this as well, as I have engaged in that kind of activity in this very thread.
So, I invite anyone who wants to have a discussion about what happened to the Horde to the other thread. We can get into that discussion as much as you want to, there. Because what’s happening right now is that in this very thread about how night elf players were being ignored? People are coming in and ignoring night elf players to voice their own grievances.
There’s a certain amount of irony I can handle before noon. This surpasses that.
Interesting. I can’t really discuss the first part of what you said in this thread (the Horde experience and racial themes isn’t close enough to what this is about), but I can discuss the second. Which I’ll do in a separate post.
Here. Here is the thread I made if you want to continue this discussion of things not specifically related to what the original poster was mentioning: The Aggrieved - Teldrassil & Beyond
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Context.
There is some context that’s missing from that statement.
First of all, I am operating under the impression that Malfurion Stormrage is one of the most powerful druids to ever live. Like, ever. Is that incorrect? I’m not trying to be snippy, as Blizzard is known to…modify their lore from time to time. But, he is that powerful, yes? He is also a night elf, yes? He is also…upset about that whole genocide thing?
I am also operating under the impression that Tyrande Whisperwind is also considered a powerful being? War of the Ancients Tyrande? Created the Sentinels Tyrande? Dropped the Wardens when they got in her way Tyrande? She wasn’t exactly operating on a low level to begin with, yes? And now, she is literally empowered by the vengeful aspect of her god? She, too, is also upset about that genocide thing?
Is it fair for me to assume that just those two constitute a fairly powerful force? One of the strongest druids who ever lived and the warrior priestess infused with the rage of a god? In the forests that they have lived for millennia?
Okay. So…so, if we’re in agreement that those people are powerful? Then the Horde should probably bring some incredibly powerful people to stand against that, right? Maybe Grand Magister Rommath, or First Arcanist Thalyrssa? Someone to offset that kind of staggering power? Lady Liadrin infused with Light power? Something? Thrall, maybe, after making peace with the elements?
Because if you can’t, then, yes, you should lose, and you should lose swiftly. You literally have no advantages in this fight. You are fighting an enemy with nothing to lose, grossly superior firepower, and vast knowledge of the terrain, and how to fight there. An enemy led by people with - and this is not hyperbole - well over 30,000 years of combat experience, largely in forests. Lady Liadrin herself said that the night elves are suited for forest combat (Outside Suramar, when the elves were all bickering).
And despite all of that, for some reason? As the original poster pointed out, the night elves kept getting out…elved. It’s like if Aquaman ended up losing a swimming match to Decent-But-Not-Great-At-Swimming Johnson.
It was taking the moment away from the night elves, after telling them this would be their moment.
Hollow.
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Not done by Alliance.
Please note that in that raid the Alliance was constantly reminded to be mean to the Zandalari, had to sacrifice troops because they couldn’t take on the Horde in a fair fight. They carried out a raid and had to run away as soon as the Horde showed up.
All of Alliance’s victories were just nullifying Horde’s victories as you said. Alliance was completely on the defensive and the best thing they could manage was a return to the status quo.
The greatest “victory” was the boats blowing up and the was nullified by Sylvanas in the next patch.
Alliance has zero faction pride. So join the club.
Btw that shame tally is only 14 points long and over half of them are vague dialogue lines that are easy to miss.
So lets not pretend this list is 200 items long and relentless in its shaming.
Teldrassil is an entire zone. Darnassus was the capital city.
Even if the Alliance was 100% the reason why Undercity got destroyed its still just one city. Trisfal Glades with the exception of Brill, Silverpine forest, Hillsbrad Foothills are all safe and sound.
Ashenvale, Darkshore and Teldrassil (Including Darnassus) are obviously not.
The Horde’s core identity has always been monsters trying to redeem themselves.
That was literally the central theme of this expansion if we ignore all the old gold crap.
That is essentially the Horde experience since day one.
They aren’t that relevant unless its a faction war story or some pockets of certain subplots.
Thats how debates work.
Not really wasted time. Now I see how you think and all I am doing above is add some perspective to your view. Perhaps make you understand that your situation while bad… is not THAT BAD.
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You basically responded exactly how I imagined you would, so I won’t bother explaining myself to you again now or in the future.
EDIT: Actually, allow me to be less inflammatory. It definitely feels like a waste of time when I spend a lot of time listing and explaining and then you engage with only the “title” of each reason and ignore the underlying reasoning. Essentially you only approach this from a point of view of trying to undercut each of my reasons rather than actually understand how someone on the other side of the debate feels.
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I only quoted the title because I didn’t want to make the thread longer than it should be. We can always go up and see everything you said.
Also, I was trying to be respectful to your last point that I would take each line and deconstruct them.
This time I didn’t do that. I only replied to your overall point. As you requested.
I am not undercutting your reasons. I am giving you context.
If somehow context feels like an attack on your feelings maybe you should re-evaluate them?
Btw, its very annoying to make arguments and the only response is “you don’t respect my feelings”.
What have I said above that is wrong or false? Did I characterize you wrongly or argue in bad faith? What sort of response do you want from me?
I’ll preface this by saying I hate quote-slicing. I’d rather the entirety of each reason be dealt with as a whole than line-by-line. So maybe that’s my fault.
But what I got out of your replies to each reason was “The Alliance has it worse” or “The Alliance didn’t do that”. It misses the point - no one ever said it had to be “Alliance-inflicted losses”. That’s where the disconnect is happening, because it seems to me that many Alliance players discount Horde loss because it didn’t happen as a direct action from them? It doesn’t make things things that were lost come back, especially characters.
You keep trying to tell me “Your losses don’t matter” because in your view they don’t equal the losses the Alliance felt. Fine, you’re entitled to your opinion, but trying to tell me that my losses didn’t happen is extraordinarily irritating. I think that’s what leads you to your conclusion that you don’t think the Horde’s situation is very bad, but I am trying to explain to you why it is worse than you think.
I’m also curious as to where the Alliance are reminded that they are mean to the Zandalari in-game. That’s something that Horde players have brought up (because we have precious little justification otherwise), unlike the reminders in-game that the Horde gets about being “bad people”. I didn’t even go into the more minor details of how each side is presented to the other - how the Alliance soldiers are always presented as thinking, feeling beings to sympathize with to the Horder, whereas the Horde are presented as out-of-control berserkers to the Alliance, thankful to be cut down by the player - because that is minor quibbling over nuance.
The overall portrayal of BfA to the Horde player is, in other words, extremely negative.
Serious question: did you play the Horde war campaign at all? It was a useless muddle and for the first half of it you don’t even engage with the Alliance, you crept around robbing graves. I didn’t actually even bring up that the Horde also lost a promising new character in Zelling. But, having played a good chunk of the Alliance campaign and all of the Horde campaign… the Alliance campaign makes you feel like you’re trying to fight a war effort, and the Horde campaign is… there? It’s an extremely frustrating set of quests, and by the end of 8.1, almost everything you tried to accomplish in the Horde war campaign is undone or taken away. You literally end the quests worse than you started. I think the only actual positive accomplishments in the Horde war campaign are carried out by Gallywix of all people, and even then he still loses badly to Mekkatorque before escaping.
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i think that is when saurfang shows up and said something like
“or a sovereign king, slain in his own home”
Saurfang, the literal genocidal monster gives us moral lessons.
and daring to compare teldrassil with dazarlazor.
like is not even close how far they are, the alliance tried to avoid civilians (most of them)
The horde, did not.
if anything i don’t even understand why the alliance is respecting their civillians is not like the horde had the same courtesy.
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Because we are the good guys, and I pray that never changes.
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I understand that. It’s a valid point.
The thing is though both factions suffer from outside influences where characters or lands are ravaged by NPC factions.
The core issue right now is that Alliance players are sick and tired of being on the losing side and any idea they propose is shoot down because it makes you feel bad from all those unrelated losses.
By your own words the best “wins” alliance seems to manage is recovering what they already had. Alliance is constantly operating at a net loss here.
My point is rather simple.
Horde took something away from the Alliance.
Alliance should take something of equal value away.
Some posters here have commented that this mirror tit for tat story telling is very boring and I agree. The problem is Alliance has been losing crap to Horde and Baddies since Cataclysm relentlessly.
BFA was a drum of oil on an already large smouldering bone fire.
Thats why some of them most commonly suggested ideas is a counter attack that has the Horde running on their home ground.
The Horde player could have their own NPCs shame the Alliance on their way to Durotar and similar experience. I am sorry you feel down due to the writer’s decisions but its no defense against what other players are justifiably asking for.
Perhaps you should be asking Blizzard for some of those unrelated to Alliance Horde losses with some unrelated Alliance Horde wins.
Key word to that bolded section is I do not think the Alliance is to blame for that situation and it should not be Alliance that is penalized to redress their own problems.
The Horde’s situation is mostly internal issues as you mentioned. The situation for the Horde player, especially Forsaken players, may be horrifically bad but its not Alliance’s fault.
Alliance’s problems are directly caused by the Horde and its the Horde that has to pay to fix them.
Will that make you feel worse? Without a doubt. But then you need blizzard to give you some internal wins to fix the issue which by the way I think they tried to do with the rebellion questline and its conclusion in Orgrimmar with all the unique dialogue and interactions the Horde player got.
The Alliance player got absolutely NOTHING. The scale of unique features the Horde player and the variety of unique options they got is unprecedented in wow’s history. Clearly Blizzard is trying things but it isn’t sticking. But at least they are trying.
You had cinematic saurfang cinematics, unique dialogues, unique events, unique branching storylines. All for Horde players only.
Alliance players got none of that despite being brutalized the worse when this expansion started and since then they have still had to put with some things as well (See loyal undead NEs)
Anyway to recap.
Horde’s situation is bad true but its mostly internal. To remedy that you need internal features which Blizzard seems to have attempted to deliver.
Alliance’s situation is bad but its mostly external. And they can’t remedy that because the Horde is feeling down. I don’t understand how this mentality does not apply to Alliance players but it is what it is.
Before BOD Alliance is reminded to minimize troll civilian casualties.
After BOD Alliance is feeling incredibly depressed over all the sacrifices, failure to stop the Zandalari, not pressing our advantage because the Troll king is dead and etc.
A very depressing affair with no net positive.
Not negative enough. Not nearly enough I am afraid.
I got around to it last month.
Honestly I did not at all see what Horde players are talking about being villains.
If you missed out on Teldrassil event then Horde’s problems seem like a minor disagreement in governance.
Most characters ignore why this war began in the first place and what the Horde did. Its like they are in a vacuum and cannot express they are wrong in anyway unless you look REALLY hard.
The quests feel disconnected or goofy. Motivations are all over the place, “Guess we got a war to fight, so we are going to fight it and this is how”
The strategy and ideas seemed idiotic but thats warcraft for you.
If I play the Horde I wanted to be monsterous if I can’t be moral… so raid villages, blight towns, mayham, brutality and warcrimes none-stop.
I got none of that.
The war was just… there. Like distraction and nothing more.
I didn’t get the reluctant soldier in a war they don’t want to be in experience nor did I get the merciless bloodthirsty monsters experience.
The Alliance war campaign was better but not that great either. No memorable moments, just walking to here and there and killing people or achieving objectives I don’t remotely care about.
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Alliance can kill burning legion demons and still be good guys.
I am sure they can manage the same by killing Horde.
It is always weird that line being there. Makes me wonder if there wasn’t a swapping of characters that were supposed to be involved there cause that line doesn’t fit with neither Saurfang nor Thrall and the dialogue never got updated to reflect the change of characters.
Saurfang was taken captive before the Zandalari were ever involved in a positive fashion with the Horde and Thrall was in Nagrand the whole time. Neither one of them was around the the Horde aiding the Zandalari or having meaningful enough interactions with Rastakhan to merit egging the Alliance on in that situation where both sides are infiltrating Org on a rescue.
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Lol being told you hit the horde so hard they are discussing surrender isn’t a net positive
Fast forward a patch or two.
“We can’t beat the Horde on our own, we only have enough forces for one more assault, and we lose”
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That wasn’t said, and fast forward another path and everything is fine, honey there’s this thing called context
Are we back to the chat Katiera with the reactionary puddle deep responses?
If so we are done.
What you said above cannot even be described as a rational thought. What are you even talking about?