Borrowed power means you obtain a spell or ability then it gets discarded the next expansion. Prior to WoD, this did not happen.
You know class sets are borrowed-power.
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No they arent.
Gotta disagree with you on that, dawg. Tier sets are absolutely borrowed power. I think the issue is, that something like artifact power, should’ve lasted multiple expansions, not one. Horizontal progression can be really really good & an item like Ashrbinger, or Xal’atath, should never be thrown away. I think the issue was replacing our weapons with a necklace & resetting the progression that was made. I didn’t play then, but Legion artifacts looked like an additional layer of talents & that seemed pretty cool.
current example for me. we have one druid in our guild raid nights. thats me. i make sure to swap to the mass entanglement talent in nyalotha because no one can do that. its pretty cool. when im done with raid i go back to typhoon for mythics. no one else can do that either in my 5 mans. unless there are multiple druids but that is honestly rare compared to the many mythics i run. thats cool too. so there is my class/spec identity in use. its so rewarding i can freely swap between the two talents between content to provide that utility to the group that is dearly needed/wanted.
edit: covenants can be the same thing. each class/spec can have their own unique power/utility but they can all be swapped out on a whim. its rewarding to be able to provide any utility that is available to your class/spec at any time.
Yeah but class set were more of a hey we are going to give you this little perk that gives this cool little proc or makes this one long cast ability an insta cast. And you could honestly get away with not having a complete set or one at all and still be powerful.
Try being viable now without the borrowed power of the expansion . Try doing BfA content without Azerite gear or some kind of essance or doing last patch without some kind of corruption .
Before with class sets classes were complete with out them , they were just icing on the cake.
Now it’s classes are the dry ingredients and the borrowed power are the wet ingredients that complete the cake. Can’t have a cake with only dry and you can’t have a complete class/spec now without borrowed power.
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i agree with this. ive had this thought though. specifically about corruptions. what if they tuned the content to match the level of our classes/specs and then the borrowed power would just be the icing on the cake? at that point, covenants would just push you above and beyond the content and you would feel like a god haha.
In regards to the edit, that exists. Covenants aren’t easily swapped, but soul binds within your covenant, can be.
I’m glad you’re able to switch talents for a mythic, a raid & pvp. But I do think it devalues the identity of a class & spec. If you’re switching between them so often anyways, just make it baseline. Then just get rid of specs at all & make all talents baseline. If there’s nothing to work for, if there’s no punishment, and thus reward, for changing the way I play, then what’s the point? You can’t have good without bad. You can’t have a reward, without the potential to fail. When you change specs & talents so freely, there’s no satisfaction in doing it. Was it good in vanilla? No. It was just a gold sink. But did it feel good when I swap out of holy, put in my ret talents grab seal of command, then got into a BG and dumpster people? Yeah, it sure did. But now I’m out 200 gold to switch back and forth, and I have something to go do, make more money. Now you just get to feel good about providing something you didnt have to do anything to receive which just waters it down. “I’m doing a mythic now so let me just click on typhoon & im good to go” don’t need to interact with a ‘master’ of your class, dont need to move a muscle. You just port in, click, done. Good to go.
Azerite gear isnt a good replacement for class sets because they’re handed out like candy. Completing a full set felt good, slowly gathering the pieces, it feels like a combo deck where you’re just like “Yeah, it’s all starting to come together now.” And there were even downsides, like on another server, my priest didnt even use the full t2 set because the gloves I was already wearing were better in a vacuum by themself. It wasn’t worth using my T2 gloves until I had the rest of my combo pieces. But then I got the robe, then the shoulder & suddenly, a few pieces that were individually sub-par came together to be great & enchants covered their faults.
I feel like pulling the trigger on a weapon like ashbringer, or scythe of ELune, shouldve been a permanent change to the game. We never should have lost them. Would using the same weapon forever become boring? I dont think so if they kept updating it as a sub-talent tree that continues to grow. Horizontal progression is cool. It should’ve been a multi-expansion experience. You dont just introduce the damn Ashrbinger and then throw it away like it’s some prop.
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I agree class sets felt good and they were fun but like I said to the other person they were the icing on the cake because they topped off a toon that already felt complete and things like azerite gear and other post WoD borrowed powers feel like the remaining ingredients to complete the cake and our classes are just the dry ingredients waiting for those extra ingredients.
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sure it has every new xpac your gear and legendary weapons become obsolete its really no different than burning my artifact power to cleanse the giant sword its a different mechanic but the same result
Youre right, I lost the point. I completely agree. I feel like something akin to covenants is exactly what we need to feel whole again. Covenants are the 2nd layer of cake that fill the holes in our classes. Soul Binds & Talents are the icing.
idk. i have fun just by healing instead of dpsing. or tanking instead of the others. i dont see the appeal to make that choice difficult. why would i want it to be difficult? with regards to swapping specs, the reward isnt how i got there, but succeeding in the content with that spec. ive probably just become accustomed to how it is now, and i don’t appreciate any of the restrictions covenants may propose.
i feel like after grinding the gear, the ap, the azerite armor, the essences, the corruptions you get the reward to use all of those things. the bad is the grind. the good is the ability to freely utilize what you’ve earned. this is fun for me. games are to be fun. i do understand you want things to be more difficult to make you earn that right to play a certain spec or covenant again. its just not for me.
Well, how would you feel if you could just go talk to a rogue trainer or something, and just swap classes, for free, no restriction?
You’re a druid right now, you have no interest in leveling a new character, but you want to play a paladin. So you go & talk to a paladin trainer & suddenly all of your gear is swapped to appropriate plate gear. You’re feral? You’re now ret at the press of a button. I feel like that would be really, really dumb & unsatisfactory. That’s how I feel about specs now, switching from a healer, to tank, to dps, to caster with no effort. And that’s what I’m worried about covenants being. Covenants arent specs, they arent artifacts weapons. They have their own gear sets, their own talents, and their own abilities just like a class does. I don’t think you should be able to swap classes freely, and I don’t think you should be able to swap covenants or specs easily. If you could become a paladin with the press of button, then you aren’t a druid anymore. Just like you aren’t resto anymore, or a feral anymore, or a balance druid anymore. You’re just a druid. Then, you’re just ‘a character’. Nothing matters.
i mean, swapping classes like that is pretty much final fantasy. its a cool concept, but its not WOW. if they decided to add that to the game then so be it? less restriction i guess. im not advocating that should happen either. i understand how you see covenants. still not a fan, but i get it.
edit: im fine with just being a druid. thats how i identify. im a jack of all trades. thats why i play druid.
That’s what I’m saying though, why would you feel like that’s not WoW, but swapping covenants is? Covenants arent an arbitrary spec choice that you change based on circumstance. It’s a subclass. What you want to change freely are your soul binds, which you’ll be able to do. Covenants are class, Soul Binds are talents. When you decide to be a warrior, you cant be a healer, unless you do the work to level a healer. If you pick maldraxxus, you’re good at aoe, unless you decide to do the work to level up venthyr to have better single target.
eh, i see the covenants as a group of people i join to help them out with whatever problems they have. they provide me with additional power to succeed in my adventure. i dont see them as a seperate class.
That’s what a class is, a group of people with shared ideals* (generally, lore given. Tauren pally’s & human pally’s are different.) When you’re a human paladin, youre an archaic member of the Order of the Silverhand, you help out at Northshire Abbey, get promoted to a deputy when you arrive in Goldshire, then you get promoted to ‘Detective’*(effectively, but nowhere in the game does it say this, although humans are officially drafted into the stormwind military.) then you just go about by yourself, picking & choosing what cases you decide to take. Eventually you hit level 40 to go on a quest for your order to retrieve your holy steed, so on & so forth.
tbh, we’re going in circles here. let me ask you. what if the dev’s choice in narrative was to have covenants obtained and the abilities and such swappable at will? would you be on the forums opposing their decision? or would you even care?
let me just say, i have come to terms the current restrictions imposed on classes and such. i know i cant just be a warrior with a click of a button. im fine with that. im not interested in having another layer added to it. you are. thats cool.