Quite a bit of the making of the death knights was kept from Doomhammer (they had numerous failed experiments in addition.) That Gul’dan is just such a rascally goofball! If anything Id say that Doomhammer never shouldve trusted him, but Doomhammer knew that already, but had no choice since the Shadow Council had orcestrated the exile of the Frostwolves and shamans.
The old Horde still had individual clans and the Warchief, while having wuite a bit of power, could only do so much before the other clans began pushing back. The Dragonmaw clan (with some help and inspiration from a dastardly earth dragon) enslaved Alexxstrasa and began producing their red dragons for war.
Given Orgrims precarious position (given Gul’dans undermining of his plans and even starting rumors that the Worg Raiders planned to join Blackhands sons -another force for adoomhammer to contend with- forcing him to dissolve the raiders) Orgrim likely wasnt in a position to turn down adding giant fire breathing dragons into his army.
Could you imagine what a bunch of bloodthirsty demon augmented orcs would do if you denied them dragons? Remember who Orgrim is ruling here. He was one of only a few orcs who didnt drink the demon blood and had earned himself the nickname “the Backstabber” despite killing Blackhand in Mok’gora.
And while bad, no worse than average Horde outside of in how it was created, which is super mondo bad.
You’re right. They’re souls that were damned. They were people who enslaved the souls of tons of people and orcs when making undead, and received a fate that they doled out to hundreds.
It wasn’t good. I just wouldn’t feel bad if it happened to someone like Sylvanas, either.
Now, you keep bringing up:
Why is Doomhammer honored?
Well, I think the reason is that he realized he was wrong. He lived by himself for years until he met Drek’thar and discovered that Durotan’s son was alive. Then he met Thrall, found out Thrall was a pretty okay alright dude, and the two decided to bring in the Warsong (though Orgrim scoffed at it because he thought Grom was a demon-addled idiot.) and free the orcs.
Orgrim died freeing orcs from slavery. Was he a bad man? Sure. But he was trying to make up for it. And incase you haven’t been paying attention, redemption is what Thrall’s Horde is about.
You seem to be saying that Orgrim was somehow unaware of evil actions of his horde, or at least that they were acting outside his control, and he was unable to stop them.
I really don’t see where you’re getting this narrative. Every source I read seems to paint him as willing to use morally grey tools and strategies to defeat the alliance.
See, this is the key point of my argument. Doomhammer was not an evil man: he didn’t simply decide to enslave dragons or pal around with Gul’dan for TEEEH EEEVILLS. He did it because he sincerely thought that it was the only way to help his people survive. He thought war was inevitable, even though he had no idea what kind of people were to the north of the lands his horde had conquered. And that is why he struck first: rushing up to invade the northern eastern kingdoms before they have a chance to come down and swat him out of Stormwind Keep.
Sylvanas also thinks war with the Alliance is inevitable. She’s wrong, and paranoid, and silly for thinking so, but this IS her stated reason for attacking first, according to the books and the ingame sources. She believes that war is inevitable, so she struck first. Its stupid, but if she really believes it then it is the same reason that Doomhammer fought his war and did all those terrible things.
This is untrue. We learn from BTS that the entire reason she wants the war is so that she can kill every living soul in Stormwind and raise them in undeath.
She lies to Saurfang to start the war. Then admits to herself privately in thought bubbles that the tree will burn long before they reach Ashenvale.
You seem to put alot of words in other peoples mouths, Id appreciate if you read what Im actually writing, rather than relying on manipulative devices.
What Im saying is that there was nothing he could do about them at the time, given his race was battling demon taint, themselves, and numerous enemies, he did everything in his power to come out the other side. He didnt take an easy road, and that is why he is revered.
And Wait, if Doomhammer “was not an evil man, and didnt simply decide to enslave dragons or pal around with Gul’dan for TEEEH EEEEVILLS” why would Thrall wearing his armor be hypocritical?
If anything Doomhammer draws alot of similarities of Thor, a hammer wielding everyman’s hero who always lent his great strength to his companions and whose failures always came about by the betrayal of another rather than his lack of effort. Thor also trusted those he shouldnt have, and also displayed a difficulty detecting guile in others because of his inherent honesty.
Oh? When you say I put words into your mouth did you perhaps mean when I said:
which you did indeed say he was unaware of some of gul’dan’s dealings.
or did you mean when I said:
Well you indeed said that some clans were acting outside his control and he was unable to stop them without fear of reprisal from the clan chiefs:
I don’t think I put any words into your mouth that you did not at least imply.
it would NOT be hypocritical except in the very specific scenario I outlined where he wears it while telling Sylvanas she led the horde dishonorably. Because my thesis was that Sylvanas and Doomhammer were similar.
Ugh, now I gotta get back to reading terrible Christie Golden stories.
But soon, I will call upon the brave fighters of the Horde for another battle. The one you and I have both longed for."
Nathanos was silent. She did not take that for disagreement of disapproval. He was often silent. That he did not press her for more details meant that he understood what she wanted.
Stormwind.
I think this is the part that you were referring to, right?
Yeah, that does seem pretty damning… is there nothing later on in the book that clarifies maybe that killing/raising stormwind is one of her goals but she also just wants the Alliance gone because they keep threatening the horde?
I could have sworn I saw a passage where she says this. But maybe that was just her lying to Saurfang? And I guess that means she was also lying to the player character when she says this to them, then?
Hm. This is pretty embarassing, I’m usually pretty good at remembering the lore, even from outside sources. I could have sworn we got some kind of legitimate confirmation that Sylvanas was acting because she believed war was inevitable.
If she is indeed starting this war for no other reason than selfishly wanting to invade stormwind, then yeah she really isn’t anything like Doomhammer at all, so… that’ll be my bad. I’ll have to apologize to fisthook and to you, Treng.
What I mean is you are taking nuanced statements and repeating them as easily faultable absolutes.
For instance claiming that I didnt think necromancy was dishonorable when Im explaining that Doomhammers situation is more complicated than that, and that the difficulties of his situation and the survival of his Horde superceded the evils of necromancy, when the entire horde had come through summoning demons and throwing fireballs like nobody’s business.
Or branding me as “one of those people.” Essentially saying “A Sylvanas supporter!”
Every leader makes mistakes and I believe that Orgrims situation had no other options and distasteful as his very limited involvement with necromancy was, he was still an Honorable orc and wonderful example.
And now Im going to go create an Enhancement Shaman.
Wowpedia disagrees with you. And no, it wasn’t edited in today.
The Desolate Council has reservations about her actions and has requested an audience with her to speak of disagreements about their future. Sylvanas confided to Nathanos that she would rebuild the Horde military in order to conquer Stormwind. With Varian Wrynn dead and his soft son— Anduin Wrynn— ruling in his stead, Sylvanas believed it an opportune time to turn the bloodlust of the Horde on their perennial enemies, the humans of Stormwind. From the slaughter of the Stormwindians, she planned to bolster the ranks of the Forsaken, a fate she considered a mercy as they would be united with their Forsaken loved ones in death and freed from the harshness of life’s passions and loss.
I don’t remember what page this is on, though. I read BTS when it was current content.
Edit: I’m sorry, I misread your post as “nothing in the book clarifies that killing/raising Stormwind is one of her goals.” I thought you were directly challenging it, not asking.
Alright well I apologize for turning your statements into absolutes. I do often encounter people saying that all necromancy is dishonorable by nature, and I thought you might be one of them.
I should have addressed your specific, nuanced argument instead of painting you with the same brush.
Yeah, while I don’t usually see wowpedia as the most current source, that combined with the actual text from Before the Storm seems like pretty concrete evidence to me.
I hope you will both accept my apology: I sincerely thought Sylvanas was just a paranoid figure fighting because she thought war was inevitably the only way to protect her people from the Alliance, and that this made her similar to Doomhammer in my mind.
Turns out she started this war for her own more selfish reasons. I guess I believed the lie she told my character ingame.
But of course thats no excuse, because I should know a subject’s lore before I try to argue it. Thats my bad guys, I’m sorry.
imo you don’t have anything to apologize for to me. you weren’t rude in my direction.
What? of course it’s a valid excuse. dude, you can’t be expected to read every book, every side story, every thing they put outside of the game. You’re human. It happens.
Sylvanas kidnaps Anduin in order to cripple the Alliance. But in a reverse-Stockholm syndrome scenario, she slowly falls in love with him due to the power of his awesome cheekbones and good heart. Realizing that their two factions will never understand, the now passionate lovers escape into the night. Years later, just when we think all is lost in a final battle against the Void, they reappear to help us…along with their half-lightforged, half-undead babies.
After a desperate but ultimately victorious struggle, the Horde and Alliance reunite for hugs and high-fives around their once and future High King and Warchief. Tyrande slowly approaches Sylvanas…only to wrap her in a huge embrace and whisper that now she knows what it truly is to have a sister. Elune’s blessing shines down on everyone, and the game wraps with a huge dance party on Teldrassil’s stump.
What a nice thread to read during dinner! So many nice ideas, and a lot of funny ones, too. And then that very polite and intelligent Doomhammer debate, holy moly! I learned soooo much reading those posts, thanks Fisthook, Treng, and Lintsehsu ^.^
As for my idea, hm. It’s difficult because I don’t think I’d be too happy if 90% of my friends were unhappy. It’d have to be something super saccharine that people would groan at but I’d delight in. Like Van Cleef coming back as a Forsaken to hug Vanessa and mobilize the Defias as a band of plucky community service heroes! Or Garrosh coming back as like, an Elementforged Forsaken, to hug Thrall. Or all the big couples having a super combined wedding on top of a beautiful new Celestial-blessed maple world tree in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms!
I’m a sucker for corny happy stuff like that, and would probably unabashedly dig it even as people were clamoring for more revenge and war and consequences and stuff~
Personally, I want one quest where the player has to fetch Alleria or Turalyon, and we find them in Stormwind, at the lake, having a picnic with Arator, Vereesa, and her kids. Just a hint at one peaceful moment for all of them. (-Especially- if any of them die later in the plot.)
As for a more unpopular idea: I want to see Wrathion come back and be a recurring background character whose schemes the player occasionally runs into. Sometimes the player ruins his plans and he gets angry at them, and sometimes the player does just what he wanted them to and he’s all smug at them - but have him be actively trying to fill the Earth Warder shoes even if he fails half the time.
(And have Wrathion keep brushing away any blame for Garrosh and WoD, while quietly trying to patch things up in the background. Or have him claim that clearly, it was his successful plan all along, because it led to the fall of the Legion just as he planned - while clearly not believing any of what he’s saying.)
Use magical shenanigans to physically bring AU Draenor into our world and have it where MU Draenor was previously located. Also make Yrel the Lightforged racial leader and give Turalyon the boot.