Telling people to do half the dps their class is tuned for only replaces one problem for another.
This is a dismissive statement with no real value.
A simple “I disagree” would be more constructive.
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Considering most players are bad at this game - or at least considered bad if you parse anything below purple and orange according to many people on the forums - that could be a good thing for the game.
Step away from the competitive parsing culture and return to the game feeling more like an adventure with friends.
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Oh look at that, another thread complaining about this nebulous "ability bloat’ and “complexity”.
Ability bloat is frankly a meaningless word at this point, the only bloat is when an ability doesn’t fit in the rotation, it’s not about the absolute number of abilities.
As for complexity. The only specs that i can think of that are “too complex” are arcane mage due to the insane setup for burst that is very static and unforgiving, and outlaw rogue due to how crackshot works, and the fact that BTE cd is not reset when entering stealth.
All the others are pretty much fine. Some are more fun that others, some less, some like warlock were significantly downgraded during dragonflight, while others like enhancement got from good to even better.
Ill tell you the real problem here.
It’s skill issue.
The reality is that many specs NEVER felt better to play than right now. In order to have a enjoyable rotation you need interactions, and interactions add complexity, therefore to have an enjoyable rotation you need some complexity, which comes with procs, resources, abilities etc…
If we were to listen to people like you the game would devolve to skyrim levels of gameplay, which i do like skyrim, i definitely do not want skyrim gameplay in wow though.
And then you would still complain because ultimately a bad player is still a bad player.
There are some legitimate problems but it’s very specific, and general statements like that are pretty much bound to be bs.
Also remember not so long ago people were complaining about the exact opposite.
If you are the type of player that complains about this kind of stuff, you are also not the kind of player that likely needs to learn their rotation perfectly. So this “problem” Really doesn’t even affect you much.
Ultimately the reason why you don’t like the classes right now is probably because you’re a terrible player. Because as far as i’m concerned, some specs are definitely not perfect, but almost no spec is worse than before.
As for all the people complaining about hero talents and “even more complexity” Skill issue.
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Except it’s not true at all??? WTF is that point?
You can even save setups, and if it takes you that long to change talents you probably can’t read.
You didnt play wod you dont know what you want. Current trees are a solid base and can be improved but overall they are good
You can already have that feeling just play with your buddies and never care for any rated content or timing keys.
But people like op trying to dumb down the game just so everyone bad (that dont care for improving either) can bring the others down to their levek is just stupid
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A few thoughts:
- Talent trees should have more choice nodes, more talent nodes, no multi-rank talent nodes, and more pathing options. The best-received talent tree reworks, revamps, and adjustments all lean this direction.
- Keybind mapping complexity should not be leveraged as a primary means to introduce complexity (or fun) into a spec.
- Having a variety of main rotational abilities can be very healthy for a spec.
- Having a laundry list of separate timing-sensitive utilities is where most “button bloat” complaints originate (do Brewmasters really need Expel Harm AND Healing Elixir as separate abilities that do roughly the same thing?)
- Complex talent trees are good (see Path of Exile) so long as traversing them doesn’t force you to make decisions you don’t want to make.
- Most common undesirable circumstance is if a talent tree forces you to pick up an active ability you have no desire to ever actively engage with–such as “Chi Burst” or “Chi Wave”–in order to access a more desirable node.
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I think the overall size and layout of the trees is fine, but that most specs have too many buttons now. Majority of my characters have around 20 keybinds that see regular use now, and I find myself trying to learn muscle memory for keys I never had to press in previous expansions. I personally prefer 12-15 regular use skills.
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I do disagree, and I gave a reason for that disagreement. You can disagree with my disagree, which is fine, I don’t tell you how to comment. How about you don’t tell me?
Ideally, class talents such as Mindgames should lean more in the utility category instead of the throughput category.
So making Mindgames be a really good defensive and offensive cooldown based on how you use it would be the best direction for it.
Obviously in PvP it would act more as a burst damage in locking out incoming heals to you’re target and instead converts the incoming healing into damage.
While in PvE it would be more for a defensive cooldown in preventing incoming damage by it healing you instead.
Perhaps the follow up talents could increase the effect and duration of the damage/healing swap effect or maybe turn it into an AOE spell which could be a choice node of a stronger single target version or a weaker multiple target version.
But remove the raw damage component entirely so it is strictly designated for specific situations.
I would also not be opposed to having Mindgames be on a choice node with Vampiric Embrace as Mindgames could be more useful for Holy and Discipline and Vampiric Embrace being more useful for Shadow at least in PvE. Then the choice still exists for PvP as an on needed basis.
Reduce button bloat while giving Priest a more interesting and unique utility that should be strong enough to be impactful in the main 3 pillars of the endgame of Raiding, M+ and PvP.
Well if you don’t like my comment just don’t read my comment.
See… that was also a dismissive comment. Did that bring anything useful to the conversation?
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Maybe you shouldnt let a random fringe person impact you so much.
You can definitely step away from parsing culture and adventure with your friends.
The issue here is demanding everyone else does.
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So remove them becauce they came from a hated xpac? Nice Logic.
Should we remove talents added in BfA as well? Or WoD? Cata?
By the way, they did trim down the talents in Legion. Lots of abilites got removed or spec-locked and so many HATED it. Hense why some of those cut abilities came back.
Now we got you wanting them to remove more abilites. Here’s an idea, don’t pick them in your trees or add them in your list. Don’t demand they remove it because its such an inconvenience for you.
the amount of people that dont understand what these talent trees are and what they actually do makes me regret wanting them to comeback.
Nononononononononono we want talent trees and rpg elements that continue past the current expansion
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Love how before DF, people were complaining about how small and boring the talents were…
Now we’ve come full circle.
IRONIC
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HORRIBLE thread!
We want MORE talents, more options not less.
Op go back to hello kitty island advanture
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I don’t really mind the talent trees but… (grab your pitchforks) I do agree there is ability bloat. Sadly I’m just not as good as all you other apparent 2400++ arena players with such a strong command of the game and its combat…For me the amount of abilities and other things going on can be a bit overwhelming. I’m just coming back to the game and I think Ret is considered easy and less buttons but I can think of off the top of my head at least 12+ buttons I use very regularly in combat, weather stun or interrupt or something defensive or utility or a heal… one of my 4 or so single target abilities or one of my 5 AoE abilities. Luckily my mouse also has a lot of buttons so it puts a little less stress on my fingers hitting all the bindings but still I have to start getting a little bit creative for it to still be easy on my hands. anyway, I just don’t believe you need a lot of buttons to have depth and interesting combat. Many games achieve this with a lot less. For me it starts to feel redundant…and some abilities you simply use on CD without much thought. To me that isn’t adding depth.
buddy, your rotation is literally 4-5 buttons max with filler. what are you complaining about??
Well, that’s because in your hypothetical, the more buttons build is objectively OP. They should not like that! Nobody should like bad balance!
There are three possible reasons for no one to play a talent:
- It’s horrifically weak. This can be fixed by tuning.
- It feels awful to play. Considering there are people who actually LIKED Surrender to Madness, a talent that literally killed you, I find it hard to believe this opinion could ever reach 100% for any talent ever.
- It conflicts on the tree with something you MUST have for the opposite of one of the above reasons – it’s OP, or your spec feels bad to play if you DON’T have it.
Because you like it? If the active is always stronger, why would you ever NOT take the active, even if you hate the active? That’s clearly worse.
There are actives that feel great to press, actives that feel OK to press, and actives that people hate having to play around. Which ones are which is going to depend on personal tastes and preferences. IMO, that means the best design is a non-fake choice to take or not take as many as reasonably possible. (Obviously if you are a builder/spender spec you need to take at least one of each, and so on. But there are a LOT of actives that people feel obligated to take just because they’re overtuned.)
That only works if they’re balanced, though. There are people even in this thread openly advocating for imbalanced talents apparently because they believe more buttons = more skill = deserves to be stronger.
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