Stop waiting months for people to give-up before you finally tune the dungeons. The dungeon designs for DF were visually nice…but a complete failure mechanically. M+ scene would be SO much happier if we get a LAUNDRY LIST of “Ok we screwed up…here’re the 100 dungeon fixes and what we’re working on for next week” instead of “This week this one dungeon has one of its 20 problems fixed. Stayed tuned!”
SLands season 4 was the most miserable experience for M+. Not only was the decision on which dungeons to use…just god awful…but it took months to finally tune them properly. By the time they were in a “decent” spot (zero fun but at least plenty doable) everyone had long quit.
Here we are again…Granted, CoS and SBG are doing great. You can list either and have a group slapped-together in minutes and feel confident you have a good shot at timing it (or just getting your weekly 20 done)…BUT HOLY GOD…RLP? TJS? AV? Nok? What on earth were ya’ll thinking! AA finally feels good sure but this is just not an enjoyable experience…
Tack-on weekly affixes, which your entire competitive M+ (and semi-hardcore) community unanimously hates (IN THEIR CURRENT STATE) and this INSANE idea that +20 was a good idea for the weekly vault…
M+ has the potential (and for many, still is) to lifeline the game and keep people logging-in to just blast some enemies with their friends/guildies…but it can’t keep getting treated like some minigame that’s just an afterthought.
Plz…make adjustments in the dev process for 10.1, so we don’t have a third season in a row where M+ shifts out of “fun” and into “chore”
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When making these post we should atleast be objective. If some dungeons, or just some mobs/bosses, are overtuned …which they were, we should also acknowledge that cos and sbg are under tuned. Im not sure about cos…but sbg timer is very very of. The place isnt realy undertuned…which can be shown by first boss vs bad-ish group, but the timer could have 5min cut off and it would still be very doable.
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How easy/difficult should key be for the gear they provide relative to raiding and the gear it provides?
Imo they should try to be as equal as possible. That makes them parallel end game paths.
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Here we get to the actually complaint:
“Dear blizz, I’m trash, PLZ nerf.”
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More like CoS and SBG need to be brought down to where the other dungeons are. Blizzard’s aim was to balance end-game gearing and difficulty, which they succeeded in doing. What is the point of nerfing everything to be like +20 SBG? Then we will be in the same boat as before where raiding is pointless with how easy M+ is.
Not everyone was meant to be running +20s, just like how not everyone is meant to be clearing Mythic Raids.
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We have the same IO, and I have it on 3 different characters. If you think +20 weekly vault isn’t detrimental to the majority of player’s experience… You live in a bubble (PUN intended…but seriously you’re clueless).
But thanks for disagreeing with what literally anyone who’s voiced opinions on the current M+ state agrees with. Thank god blizzard has people like you to just say “everything is fine” while what should be the best expansion in ages plummets because of silly dev oversights/decisions.
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I guess this is true if you completely cherry pick “opinions” that only fit your narrative. You forget that the forums are mainly used as a method to complain and vent.
27.5 million keys completed and 21.5 million keys timed. How many threads do we see saying how well a run went?
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+20 is a joke btw. Anyone who complained about difficulty and hasnt been doing 20s since the first wave of nerfs needs to stop using overtuning as an excuse for just not being good enough.
If only they spend half the amount of energy improving play instead of complaining.
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I think HoV is the only problem dungeon in my personal opinion and experience. Thats solely due to the Hyrja storm dmg and Odyn Rune dmg though
i like the fact that there’s easy and hard keys…especially as a healer…i hope they always keep that format
i think i’d get burned out and discouraged if everything felt the same as HoV 
even in mythic raids, the difficulty ranges
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I don’t think they need to be easier… or harder. They just feel unbalanced.
This is the usual problem when you try to scale up difficulty with nothing more than a few sliding numbers. It always leads to wonky gameplay, weird metas, exploits, etc…
They need to start from the high end and tune down. They needed to have a ptr before release, invite some top guilds/M+ hardcore players, and give them all +30 keys and top end gear. Have them run the S1 dungeons and tune them so that they are fun, engaging, diverse, balanced, and BRUTALLY hard. Then make them easier for lower keys via scaling the numbers down/adding positive affixes.
The margin between fun/engaging/challenging, boringly easy, and impossible, is razor thin at the top end. Trying to hit that tiny window with nothing more than a sliding number scale and affixes was always going to fail badly. It’d be like trying to thread a needle at 100 yards.
OTOH scaling difficulty down is trivial, since the margin of error grows wider the easier the content is. If one tank out performs everyone at +3, it doesn’t matter since blizz would have already balanced ALL the tanks around +30. If one dps out performs at +5, again doesn’t matter since the further you progress the tighter/more balanced the game becomes. If one dungeon is harder or easier, again doesn’t matter that much as progressions yields better balance, not worse. By scaling backwards you know things don’t scale out of control.
These M+ problem were inevitable, completely predictable, and avoidable.
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I have 5 total characters and don’t care to do the SBG shuffle, it isn’t fun. What kind of argument is this? You see us as equals intellectually because of video game progress? I guarantee you I’m better at manipulating a 53 foot trailer in reverse than you are, does that make me right about everything?
It’s not for the majority of players. It’s explicitly stated that this is for people who want to put in the effort.
The majority of the wow player base are open world Andy’s and raid log/+10 gamers. 30% of people did 15s when that was the endgame.
I’m sure there’s an army of people who loved the free mythic gear as much as the people who loved the $600 unemployment bonuses of 2020. That’s doesn’t make it a sustainable system. “Everyone liked X” is not only untrue, but is also a logical fallacy. Any number of people can like a thing and it still not be good or have generally good outcomes.
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I don’t think he actually does and even on the Evoker, 3 of his top runs are untimed for both Fortified and Tyrannical. His best TJS & RLP timed is 16. His other alts that I found are 2469 and 1711.
Side note, why did that other thread get 404’d? lol
His argument is trash either way. Io is only you best runs. You could be a total sandbag and get to my io that I tanked for it wouldn’t make a difference.
I’ve been very open about not pushing this season and it’s verifiable that I rarely even do a 20 each week. I just don’t care.
For any body who shares the view of the puppet OP. You only need 16s to get a mythic ilvl. I have 7 crafted 418s. The other 8 slots are a mix of valor upgrades and a couple 421s that I lucked into on the vault.
The tokens aren’t only sockets. 12 tokens gets you a crafted item. Run 16s, collect valor and primal focuses and if the vault gives you 415s you don’t need, take tokens and craft a 418 with whatever stats you want. You only have to do 17/18 1 time to get 2400 and unlock the highest Valor tier. Enjoy living outside of the pressure to do things you don’t want to.
Bonus: You don’t lose crafted items in the new season. You can just farm crests to upgrade them in the new season and never care about getting drops. Full deterministic gearing to mid mythic ilvl.
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Unique Character Participation in M+20 and up
| Dungeon |
In-Time |
In & Out of Time |
% Difference |
| AA |
254,223 |
390,459 |
38% |
| CoS |
389,903 |
483,929 |
20% |
| HoV |
220,345 |
353,160 |
38% |
| RLP |
213,786 |
333,811 |
36% |
| SBG |
442,060 |
481,683 |
9% |
| TJS |
239,584 |
382,297 |
38% |
| AV |
192,606 |
324,533 |
41% |
| NO |
258,869 |
370,704 |
30% |
There’s really only CoS and SBG as extreme outliers. The rest are fairly balanced.
That’s cool. I’ve taken a break for the past couple months and haven’t looked at the 10.0.7 changes yet. I’ll probably get back into things this week in preparation.
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It’s technically 10.1. They are iterating on the primal chaos/focus system. So basically, you’ll farm a new version of primal focus called a crest and get with an enchanter who can make it a crafting reagent. Valor is going away so these items will take the place of both systems.
Side note, you can upgrade heroic raid items to 415 equiv as well which makes those items insanely more valuable and I might end up farming a bit of heroic for good trinkets that’ll inevitably be in there.
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Yeah that is the biggest benefit of the new system, being able to upgrade heroic raid items to slightly below mythic level. There’s almost always some OP trinket or weapon from the raid that M+ players don’t have easy access to.
Imagine being able to upgrade your heroic grieftorch or icon in this season to 418.
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Pretty sure the cap is the valor cap equiv.
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I’ve felt they been finely tuned for almost 2 months. AV is had room for one wipe and still time, rlp room for 2 wipes. Just because you struggle doesn’t mean they not well balanced. As for season 4 SL I didn’t feel the keys were hard or imbalance till I was past 26. Iron docks and grim rail had bit survival checks at 28. But that’s how it suppose to be. Key level scaling is the affix.
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they are awful, what are you taking about
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