Yea we need classic + already. We have era in the meantime though. Those wont be going anywhere as they have been active since 2019 and blizzard stated they will not be making changes to them or getting rid of them.
Wel ok, let’s take SOD for a second. It’s a perfect example
My abilities were divided completely down the middle depending on where my character was.
In the open world, I’d like kill someone in 2 hits with gigantic crits.
When I was in a BG, my crits were barely bigger than my open world non crits. my damage and healing abilities were artificially changed from what they are baseline - just due to me being in a different location. I could kill anyone in 2 hits outside SM but once I was in a bg, we suddenly had 5 thousand more health and less damage. For what reason actually did that even matter? Random BGs are not competitive so why try to structure it that way?
I basically was playing two diff characters depending on my location. That feels like trash.
I’d be one of the first to advocate for some sort of competition pvp wise in classic+, specifically laddered BG teams
But I don’t want the game designed around it in mind, and I definitely wouldn’t want “rbg” gear that is “bis in pve”. I’d rather the rewards from laddered or competitive pvp scenarios be visual/cosmetic like titles and mounts and leave it at that. That way, the barrier to entry stays easier and open for everyone
1 Like
I just think arena in vanilla is kinda wheelchair
To each his own I guess
2 Likes
Vanilla classes aren’t balanced for small group combat; they’re balanced for 5v5 at the minimum.
90% of 2v2 matches would be decided by matchup, and the other 10% would last an hour.
Now, rated BGs, especially solo queue rated BGs? Those would fit in great.
1 Like
I get what you’re saying, and it’s one of the reasons I am not an advocate for class changes for Classic+. It’s just not very Classic, at least in my own opinion of what that means.
If one is able to overlook some of the things, then perhaps one can overlook a lot more of the things and find that most of these concerns have at least somewhat been addressed in Retail.
And while someone can say that the game is different enough that a Warrior in Vanilla and a Warrior in Retail are completely different classes, I think someone could also reasonably say they are the same class. Of course, it depends on perspective.
Apparently, they are making some changes for the upcoming expansion, Midnight, to prune some of the abilities. I have been more or less enjoying Retail recently, as I feel as though (as stated above), if I’m going to put up with some of these changes, maybe I can put up with all of them for the content that I would like to play, and it turns out that at least to some extent I can, so far…
With that sentiment in mind, I can also double down on my preference that Classic+ embraces the Classic design philosophy and keeps out all the Retail “QoL” type changes that have removed the soul of the game, making Retail feel much like a single player game.
I state this, and note the irony that there is a community within the playerbase that enjoys playing Classic versions of WoW mostly as a single player game, which is especially evident in Hard Core, and amplified in the Solo Self Found sub-community.
1 Like
Maybe a hot take but I don’t think ratings belong anywhere near vanilla wow, for better or worse it fundamentally contrives certain game design and player behavior that I personally believe is more harmful than good
And this is coming from an arena degenerate
1 Like
It’s funny you mention this, because while I love BGs especially in an organized fashion, I actually prefer vanilla style BGs over more modern expansion ones.
Why do I enjoy it more than say wrath or cata BGs? Because it gives me more of a “chess/pong” style classic game vibe. Classes have less tools, but it’s fine because the weight is distributed between your team to cover holes. If you are playing wrath or cata bgs, those holes become much more narrow and fewer due to class design
Like I love arenas and it used to be the only thing I did, but I would never play an arena ele sham without hex, resto without spirit link, enhance without windwalk for example. But if I had to choose having those in a bg I prefer they not be there. I’m not sure if that makes sense, maybe I’m the only person like this but I like the weight distribution between the tools you have in vanilla because it makes using these cooldowns more important because there are less of them. It’s why your team times fap/rocket boots when trinkets are down or why freedom is that much more important because your team doesn’t really have baseline tools to bypass the need for it as much
I have been really curious what retail mains think of the ability pruning. I saw memes of people’s action bars with references to “vanilla” bars. Was kinda funny ngl
Less buttons are not always “easier game” and “more buttons” don’t always mean each button has weight to it. I’d pick 6 buttons where 3 of them were heavy over 10 buttons where 3 were filler just to fill but didn’t do much
1 Like
true, well, they could just have 5v5 arenas then 
Yeah this is straight facts
But
I do think that the actual day to day class gameplay being engaging matters more than the size of those holes from a “what’s better for the playerbase” perspective
I like the fact I can list out 10 things I can do to help your priest, it gives me skill expression between other warlocks, if I don’t have those buttons to push, idk it’s just boring to me
It’s why I don’t really find tbc arena attractive too, just too static gameplay for me, also happen to think designing competitive gameplay around RNG on crowd control is terrible design but that’s a tbc issue (wotlk too, but lesser extent)
You’re totally right; due to class design, BGs in Vanilla are more about teamwork than about individual plays.
Class design has been flattened in later expansions in order to support arena-style play; when there’s only 2 people on a team, you both need to be able to cover things. This results in a greater emphasis on individual plays in a BG, because you don’t need your team to cover you, you can do it yourself.
In Vanilla, if you don’t peel for your healer, they just die without doing any real healing. In Wrath/Cata, if you don’t peel for your healer, they kite and use instants and it’s not quite as good as if they were freecasting but they’re still doing things and taking care of themselves.
(This is incidentally the reason why I like TBC so much; because it made a few little changes on that direction, but hasn’t ruined classes with it yet. You get both individual plays and teamwork being important because it’s on the precipice between them.)
This is a fair take too.
I would just like for something to happen to prevent premades from stomping pugs in BGs. I’d like to be able to play BGs other than AV when I’m solo. Siloing premades into a specific premade-rated queue, with a separated solo queue, is one way to accomplish this (it has to be rated instead of normal because it makes the premades feel special and keeps them queuing), but as you point out there are side effects.
This gameplay loop is also terrible yeah
In a way I actually do too
I think more engaging classes are overall better for the whole game* in a general sense. I got a taste of wrath-nilla and am a firm believer in it being possible if the actual game was tuned accordingly. I tried tbc-nilla too and like it but you might as well just skip it and go one more leg up. It’s just better.
Maybe they can find a way to bridge the gap between nilla and wrath without going full blown wrath I don’t know realy, I’m not even convinced they have the mindset to do so. I’m a bit bias because I play wow differently than most people. Like I only like vanilla to make gold in crater while pvping, griefing at the graveyard and @ people in discord to chit talk and create drama because vanilla is fun with drama. I also like the rank even though it’s degenerate because of the communities that form around it and the drama/trash talking. Vanilla by itself is boring if you try to play it like a more modern expansion imo. That’s why I don’t play anniversary. It’s not even remotely similar to 2019
This is an ongoing issue that happens every server. I don’t know what the immediate perfect fix is.. because I like to pug, and I like to run 3-4 mans too, and I also like getting the gang members together to hit other premade a with the 10 minute pile driver, or fill all my bags with cons for a 2 hour war game
I also do not think outright disabling groups or making solo only is the way to go on a community fueled game. Perhaps they can be separate with multiple reasons to partake in a group Q as well as a solo q. I don’t think there will ever actually be a perfect way to satisfy both camps
yeah this is called class homogenization and it’s a big part of why retail is garbage
Premades always gonna exist
When we qing up
You can call out wallet warriors.
We’re all friends here.
I’ll be home in like.. probably 6 hours lol.
I’m almost 30 so I stopped till ur close then we push 39s
Gotta copy that warr to era too
Because Retail isn’t an rpg anymore; it’s an e-sport.
1 Like
we are all not friends here, how dare you say that, my one and only bestie is Laz
And I think what I said about player behavior when it comes to ratings transcends just wallet warrior swiping but rather cultivates a mass community mindset on how to approach the game and that in turn reflects to everyone else
To put it a bit more eloquently ratings encourage meta chasing which further encourages degenerate player behavior which further encourages developers and game designs to feed into said behavior which is why retail is the way it is today
This type of feedback loop should not exist in classic+ imo, although devs certainly should discern and determine when respond to player concerns, they absolutely should NOT listen to people who want to turn the game into a more competitive audience, they will kill the game 100%
2 Likes
Never thought I’d say it
But Zaalg gets it
Money changes everything.