PLEASE do not allow a market of decorating services to be created

Community Housing
1

EDIT: Blizzard had very recently created this post which seems to imply a formalization of (or reiteration of their position that) all boosting/”traditional” services in the game, which will likely extend as widely as possible, including to those around housing, are completely acceptable and thus endorsed. I wouldn’t have posted had I seen this as it all but guarantees any concern around this is a non-issue to them.

Ion has mentioned that co-decorating privileges are something they want to do, and obviously creators and players know this means that there are markets waiting to be stood up for people to decorate your house for you for gold. This is something Blizzard suits are likely aware of and even thrilled about as it means more tokens sold, but it undermines the entire point of a purely intrinsic pillar of the game existing and turns it into just another gold-driven activity.

I think one could argue that if you don’t care, you’re free to do whatever you want to your own house for free, but this misses the point. Just like M+, just like raiding, it creates an entirely different incentive structure revolving around making money by playing the game for others and will result in those who don’t care as much about their house simply paying someone to do the WoW equivalent of interior design/decorating in lieu of encouraging players to enjoy something that isn’t “number go up”. In effect, the pillar becomes “number go up” for anyone who logs in to grind M+ and then doesn’t engage with anything else except to flex their house they paid for the decoration of (and the same demo will have done 0 endeavor tasks as it doesn’t have much gratification for the “number go up” gamer).

I’m not against co-decorating (I think this is great on its own), but WoW is far, far too economy-driven as is and this will absolutely corrupt a newly born “pillar” with this same nonsense if care is not taken to keep “free market” corruption away (look no further than the trade services channel to see what is allowed even after the M+ boosting communities were prohibited. This is all housing will be for some players and eventually for the pillar altogether).

1 Like
2

It is an enormous leap to imply that the emergence of decorating services will transform WoW’s version of housing into what you are saying it will. People will still decorate their own houses, decorate their friends’ houses, visit their friends’ neighborhoods. The existence of services does not in any way remove this at all, nor is there nearly as powerful of an incentive to rely on them as there is with actual player power (i.e. carries for gear and vault).

4 Likes
3

Yep. I’ve been saying that for a while now.

Next thing we’ll see is RMT house “boosting” services and decorating services.

4

I think I get where you’re coming from, and I don’t want to see housing become a milking system.

That said, I don’t think there’s a reasonable way to abide by what you’re asking for. Co-building has to exist, we need the ability to grant permissions to friends and guildies to modify our plots for various reasons, and if we can’t do it through an actual feature, some people will just start sharing passwords, which isn’t ideal.

But beyond that, I dunno, I don’t have any issue with people paying for builds. This isn’t about flexing this is about having a place that reflects your fantasy and it’s about creativity. Not everyone is going to have the time or talent to make a cool place alone, so sometimes you need help, and that’s what co-building is: helping. Sometimes there’ll be a reward for sure, an exchange for services, but in the end, that means two players with different interests are both happy-- one played the game and earned their build (they just didn’t create it), the other person played the game and created the build (they just didn’t earn it).

Two happy folks, both getting what they want. Seems positive to me.

I’ll also add that I did a number of builds for roleplayers in Wildstar, and it was one of the highlights of my years there as a housing player. I absolutely loved helping them create the sets they wanted to express their stories. And I will note, it was mutually beneficial in more ways than one, because I got to use their plots/budgets, and their decor, meaning I didn’t have to farm anything (and even came across new items I didn’t own) but still got the fun of completing major builds requiring thousands of decor.

In the end, whatever weird/crappiness may come from some individuals showing off, or some suits making money from the system, I think those faults are heavily outweighed by the joy and freedom that would come from co-building.

2 Likes
5

No, it really doesn’t. Co-building wasn’t a thing in other MMOs I’ve played with housing and they do just fine without it.

6

Co-building was a primary aspect of Wildstar, arguably the best (objectively among the best) housing systems. I described in detail the good work I was able to do with the ability to take on building powers in that game, and I also noted that password-sharing already bypasses the block, yet comes with potential issues for players and Blizzard.

In essence, co-building is simply co-operation and sharing. Those are good things in a social/creative context.

Now, when I write that the feature ‘has to exist’, I’m being rhetorical. Of course, nobody will die if it doesn’t happen lol. But essentially, co-building has many positive aspects.

The only negative I’m seeing here is that some people are worried that others may have cool homes they won’t have built themselves… but honestly, why is that an issue? Does it lessen what you’ve accomplished somehow? Do you think people won’t visit or appreciate the work an individual puts into their own place?

edit: I also have to ask, why do you think ‘they do just fine without it’ is some kind of useful response or counterpoint? Like, you could say that about almost anything considered as an addition to the game. There is no value in saying ‘it’s fine’ as a rebuttal because it’s so empty of reason or context, and only services to ‘nope’ something without actually having a point.

1 Like
7

That’s great, but my point was that not every MMO has co-building and it isn’t a necessity.

We’re talking about entirely different types of communities.

This game has so much boosting services, RMT crap, etc. it’s not even funny. Everything from leveling to PvP to even the BMAH is a paid service in this game.

It opens people up to more scamming, more RMT and degenerate behavior that isn’t necessary to decorate a house.

I’ve been playing MMOs with housing for over a decade and the only time I saw co-op decorating was the guild ships in SWTOR— and all it ended with was drama and arguments.

I could care less if it’s built themselves or copied from someone’s guide or whatever. That isn’t even remotely the point here.

Because housing is what keeps those games going now and co-op building was never a factor of that.

You’re the one that made the claim that it has to exist:

And no. It does not HAVE TO exist. It is not a make or break necessity.

8

I can see decorating services being outlawed by Blizzard, but only for the sole reason that they aren’t going to be able to put in the required effort to police it like they already do in regards to protecting carry buyers. Decorating is simply way too subjective for terms to ever be accurately stated in-game with enough precision.

That being said, they will still add the permission regardless of how they approach that. I don’t see them backtracking on it.

9

Virtually nothing is a necessity, this is a non-point just like your ‘it’s fine’ response. You’re not making an argument here you’re just saying ‘nope’ as I said. Which is a waste of everyone’s time.

This game is composed of entirely different types of communities. There is no one community that makes up an entire MMO.

I don’t think you actually care about this lol. Scamming exists all the time in-game and out of game, it’s not a reason to not do something. Especially when, as you noted, there are already many ways for people to be scammed.

Cool anecdote, but I think we can both agree (if you have any sense of reason or balance) that not every exchange in WoW based on gold has resulted in drama and arguments. I’ve seen plenty of people pay to be carried and it works out well… if it didn’t, the system would collapse, people would stop participating, and you’d get your wish.

What’s the point then? You’re just deeply concerned about people being scammed?

This doesn’t even make sense. First, the idea that housing is what keeps games going… yeesh. Where do you even get that from? Housing is super niche, look at the number of people actually doing anything with their homes in the pub neighbourhoods. It took me like a week just to find a community that was housing-focused.

And also, saying ‘co-op building was never a factor of that’, when I’ve already described a game that was very popular for housing, and thrived with co-building?

I’m willing to accept that you had bad experiences (or at least saw them). But that’s not a reason to not do something when there are also good experiences being described, and then the basic utility of the proposed feature isn’t intrinsically prone to bad things.

So like, do you read the posts you reply to?

CLEARLY it doesn’t HAVE to happen. Come on, dude. Even you are better than that.

Anyway, in the end, I’m not gonna debate this with you further cause you don’t really have any points, just anecdotes and fears. I’m sure Blizzard will add this feature at some point, regardless of naysayers, cause it’s just kind of obvious that it will be an overall good (and if it isn’t, they pull it, easy).

10

… you’re the one that made this point. Not me. You claimed it has to exist, as if it’s an integral part of the importance of housing in an MMO.

Please read further and understand. I’m not the one with a problem here.

So you ignored where I said the following:

Mkay, let’s keep going…

So you have no argument against it and will just dismiss me, when this has been my argument against co-building since it was first announced.

The RMT and services are out of hand in this game— in every aspect. Which I covered and you blatantly ignored.

So you’re incapable of having a conversation without personal insults? Seriously? This is what you resort to?

Thank you for confirming you’re just here to make bad faith arguments and refuse to read.

More ignorance towards everything explained to you, just so you can act dismissive.

Oh… the irony…

You’re not worth a conversation if you’re just going to continue with the poor narratives, personal insults and dismissive bad faith bs.

Have a better day. Next time, please learn to read and respond to the actual points made, instead of the ad hom nonsense you replied with.

11

We have ample evidence for what ‘marketizing’ does to the game. The reward for doing so being different (housing vs player power) does nothing to discount this. Again, I am in favor of co-decorating, and it’s certainly not any of our roles to determine how exactly it should be managed, but it’s worth discussing.

We could make this argument for anything else as well. You can buy any rewards in this game through boosting except maybe the limited HOF/M+ ones. Of course anyone can still clear anything and get the prestige rewards that patch, so what does it matter? It creates economies that boost token sales, and people get mounts, so everyone is happy, right? Except this also undermines the entire point of prestige rewards, not to mention we have seen for over a decade the way game design and player motivations must be considered to have a healthy game. WoW players should know this more than almost anyone considering how poorly it’s been managed for the pursuit of profit. You may stand to benefit if you’re part of these cabals, but otherwise it at best has no benefit to people who enjoy housing and at worst just continues the trend of allowing economies to shape the way the game is played.

Again, I’m in favor of co-decorating. If I worked for Blizzard and was being paid to find a solution to this issue, I would be, but unfortunately I pay them so I’d like to at least voice concern for what I’ve watched happen in the game as a player who began playing in BC. We could plainly see the way this affected classic with GDKP runs. “It’ll be fine” is not really a valid line of argument here.

12

Just saw this post and thought, this has gotta be about housing lol:

So basically, while I’m not a proponent of paid services, Blizzard is going out of their way to state that paid services in-game using gold is allowed. This is likely a prelude to the feature being added in Midnight.

In the end, I don’t like the paid services spam in chats and group finder. I would support the cause to prevent that type of situation, so I’m empathetic to Vkv’s concerns. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to try to block a potentially great and useful feature for many players out of fears it may be exploited by others.

Almost everything Blizzard releases can be exploited like this, so I mean… are you going to vote to stop any new type of content that could lead to gold-for-service?

Anyway, we’ll see what happens!

13

Certainly I wouldn’t argue to have features chopped due to markets being made around them as my issue isn’t with the features, only the markets and their effects. It’s up to the game designers how to handle that, but I agree it’s unlikely given the financial incentives they’ve enjoyed for years and have now brought under their own storefront with tokens (which I’m also not against, just the things they allow/encourage with their design to push the sales). The number going up each year is the single most important thing, sadly.

I do think you’re right about that post, though, they’re formalizing it across every form of the game in every way unless your organization.. gets too large/organized. The sole concern seems to be keeping it under their umbrella (a question of reliability/reducing scams, no doubt, and nothing to do with the game experience).

14

Am I misunderstanding what you mean here? I’m not part of any ‘cabal’, but I absolutely do want co-building, because I want to be able to help friends and build for roleplayers/event hosts. And even for more selfish reasons: given the constraints in budget and decor acquisition, co-building would let me build consistently without having to tear down my own place or farm 3500 decor all over again. It’s a HUGE benefit that has nothing to do with gold.

I get your position overall, and as said I don’t want to see more marketing/gold profit motivations in the game. But I think this may be a situation where it’s very binary: we either have the function or we don’t. So as much as you mention being in favour of co-building, I just don’t see how to stop the service aspect’s potential negative outcomes other than just not allowing co-building-- Blizzard can’t really implement a ‘no services for gold in housing’ policy, it would be impossible to enforce (how would they even know what the gold is for).

So if anyone has any deep ideas, share em! But otherwise, if this is a yes or no to co-building situation, I will say yes a thousand times and hope that concern does not prevent the introduction of an impactful new upgrade for housing functionality.

1 Like
15

No, I’m in agreement with you. There I was referring specifically to the market, not the feature itself. Co-decorating absolutely has benefits, and I agree also that I don’t have any ready-made solution for them even if they asked me because it isn’t exactly a no-brainer thing to do (in a world where they’ve legitimized it, as in that post you sent which I had not seen).

Unfortunately the discourse here along with that post means I somehow went down from 0 hope that they will ever take any action for community/game health over the financial aspect. Not really something we’ve ever seen them do before except in beneficial (for them) circumstances anyway, I suppose.

1 Like
16

I know we’re just gamers posting on a forum, but that’s good to see lol. I had thought people were going to start calling for co-building to never be added, which is a sad.

I also wish there was a way to have the positives without negatives. I guess personally, in the end, I already try to just ignore the garbage in trade chat and groups when it comes to these service spammers. So will continue that.

One other thing I was thinking a minute ago, to be considered: Current carry services seem to be stuff that takes a matter of an hour or two, and often the service providers are doing it for many people at once (for raid cosmetics, etc.) When it comes to building, you have to first find a high competency builder who’s worth the money, they have to agree to do the project, and then a more robust build could require anywhere from 20-30+ hours. Then consider that many builders would rather build for friends and guildies than take on the risks of a stranger providing gold.

So basically, while it’ll happen for sure, I think gold service building will be a rarity overall and nowhere near as common or in-your-face as the other stuff.

I could be wrong though (let’s hope not lol).

Now, if Blizzard eventually lets us sell blueprints of homes/cobbled items, that’ll be a whole other whirlwind. But it would probably be through the auction house and probably not be ‘service’ in that sense, so much as just another sale, and the only negative in context would be that some people will get to purchase nice things for tokens-- though at the same time, this can also be good for poorer players who don’t have nice things, cause I would absolutely price my stuff cheaply if I could.

17

Yea I know what you mean, the finance aspects of life are seeping constantly into gaming and it’s depressing.

I’m in a huge community of builders in-game, so I’m hoping to just do everything with them and never interact with the public. Best way to avoid services lol.

18

I do hope you’re right about it not being common. Obviously with the world we live in and being WoW players we’ve seen time and time again the most degenerate behaviors imaginable coming out of economies and markets. It’s not that serious in a game, but I do believe it’s been the shell shot through the foot of many of Blizzard’s games (many which previously dominated their respective genres and lost an unloseable lead due only to this greed). I suppose we’ll see, but good to know also that there are players who enjoy housing and the game for the right reasons.

EDIT: Maybe joining housing communities is also a good decision so feel free to plug one if you’ve got a good one that is open to more people!

19

I’m not sure I u sweats d why this is worrisome to you. I personally have zero intention of paying anyone to decorate my house for me. That takes the entire point away for me of housing.

If other people want to do this, it doesn’t affect me. Will token sales go up? More than likely. But we’ve all know the predatory tactics were going to flourish with the release of housing.

Just show some self control.

20

Check out The Cozy Keep if you’re on NA servers! Great people so far, extremely active and a widespread love of housing/creativity.

1 Like