People Don't Understand #Somechanges

There is no TLDR version, so sorry if you hate reading more than a couple sentences.

Now that #somechanges is a thing, I see a lot of people advocating for stuff like dual spec and druids having a normal rez and other such things. I think they completely miss the point of #somechanges and view it as “Things you would like in the game.” rather than addressing issues with the TBC experience.

#nochanges for vanilla classic was created not because people liked a world buff meta or wanted mage AoE boosts, in fact most of the #nochange crowd hate those things, but rather because people were worried Blizzard would screw the game up if given an inch, and they deemed dealing with known issues preferable to gambling on Blizzard. Of course as we see now, #nochanges created it’s own changes due to increased player knowledge about the game and foresight, and some changes made it in to the game anyway, but they were kept to a minimum.

Going forward in to TBC #somechanges is being attempted, and as stated earlier many people seem to completely miss the point. The point of #somechanges is not to add QoL things, but rather try to preserve the TBC experience and address potential issues that may arise from players having foreknowledge of things. The seal change is a prime example of the latter. If people went in to TBC classic not knowing how good/bad the seals of blood/vengeance were, as was the case in original TBC, they likely would of left them faction exclusive, but because people know, it will impact the choices they will make. Many tryhards would swap factions for the edge Seal of Blood gives, despite the fact in the grand picture it’s not as impactful as people act.

Players often view game design through an individual lens. This is problematic as WoW is a MMO and everything everyone does effect one another, and changes will often ripple throughout the game and effect things that appear unrelated. The job of a devs is to look through dozens if not hundreds of these lenses, and being able to do this plays a large role in the difference between a good dev and bad dev. Going in to TBC classic with #somechanges being a thing, the job of the devs is to deem if a design change will impact the TBC experience and gauge how much so, and if the deviation is worth it. I emphasis TBC experience because that’s what TBC classic is suppose to be, a recreation of TBC, not TBC+, not TBC with Wrath QoL features, a recreation of TBC.

If we look at the lifting of the seal restriction, we can see why it’s impact is not as large as say some of the other popular changes being floated around, such as druids having a normal rez or dual spec. The first thing to note is that Seal of Blood, a staple for ret, and Seal of Vengeance, which has occasional usage in tanking, were not added in Wrath, both existed in BC, the change is removing a restriction, not adding in new content. The impact of this restriction is minor and will not change the TBC experience much. Why is this? Because ret is still a bit of a meme spec in TBC, not vanilla level meme spec, but it still under-performs in damage regardless of seal being used. Ret is taken to raid for utility reasons, not for the damage it’s seals provides. The seal change will impact a paladin on an individual level, have a very minor impact on a group level, and little to no impact on a raid level. Once again because it is confined mostly to the paladin, coupled with ret’s already mediocre damage, it’s impact on PvP will also be minimal. If anything the +1 talent point being freed up is a bigger game changer, and even all that aside, I personally believe concerns of faction rerolls played the biggest part in the change, which is amusing since Arcane Torrent, not Seal of Blood, gives Blood Elf paladins the edge.

If we look at another proposed change, druids getting a normal rez, we can see the ripple effects are much larger than the seal change. Why is this? Because revive did not exist in TBC, and because of that how the druid was played was effected by this. Just because this ability was not used in combat or for increasing heals or DPS does not mean it does not effect the gameplay experience of a druid and those around them. Lack of revive had a major impact on how groups were formed, with groups feeling confident about their ability having no issue having a druid heal, while those less sure may opt for another type of healer if they believed deaths would be a thing. That’s already effecting not just the individual experience of the druid, but the collective experience of the group. And people easily forget the fact a battle rez also plays a significant role in druid utility and gives them an edge in certain other scenarios. Some classes are more desirable in certain situations and some in others, this is part of what makes TBC, TBC. Where class utility plays a bigger role on picking a class than numbers on a chart.

Simply put #somechanges is not a request for additions. It’s addressing problems that face the TBC experience. TBC not having dual spec or a druid normal rez or other proposed changes is not a problem the TBC experience has, because neither of them were in TBC. If anything they would cause problems. A good example of a TBC change is addressing the ring enchants.

I think I should also address the elephant in the room, as I hear some people thinking “the boost!” currently. That is a different topic as that was added for monetization, not to effect/change the TBC experience (even though it will as a side effect, and Blizzard has taken the stance of profit over game experience, whether you view it as a good or bad thing).

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While you’re right, of course, I hope you didn’t put too much effort into writing those nine paragraphs. Bluntly put, the people you’re addressing with this aren’t thinking about the things you’re talking about here at all. They’re thinking in terms of “I want what I want and so I should have it.” That’s why “nochanges” became a snarl word to them and why they’re treating “somechanges” as a reason why everyone should agree they can have what they want now, the game being fun for anyone else be damned.

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I know a large bloc won’t listen, but that is fine, as long as it makes people think instead of impulsively ask.

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You are objectively and subjectively correct in all the assertions you have made. Sadly, most people wont read it, and if they do, probably wont agree with the point you are making.

Nonetheless, you are absolutely correct, and i think you have encapsulated the logic and thought processs of Blizzard in regards to TBC Classic very well.

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OK 1st thing And people give me A problem when I made to long posts ever gonna do that at least space it out so it’s easier to read.

Secondly OK is seal of blood a really big change all in all not really You are correct all the changes blizzard has made at this point have not been that big.

If I’m being honest though the way they were talking I do think they are going to change Rachel’s just the way were it they were talking out faction balance.

Because let’s not be kidding ourselves faction balance is going to be a big thing and I still say horde population is going to go up by 30%.

Thirdly Your argument is still justified around the idea That you say that dual spec is going to change things weather be for the good or for the badd you don’t know you want tbc not tbc +

However I would make an argument Dual spec Does not make the burning crusade into tbc +

I would also make it argument what is the absolute worst case scenario honestly That Dual spec.

Could really bring When I suggested feature I look at the positive and the negative I wouldn’t be pushing so hard if I didn’t think it would be good for the game.

Any absolute worst absolute worst scenario would be this People have to have to specific specs for raids because those 2 little points give yourself that 2 or 3% Faster clear on the boss.

But quite honestly if they were really going to go that far What’s the difference between that and having people literally have warlocks teleport back to the city and respect.

If that were really the case people would be doing that and raise right now in classic.

So in my mind if that’s the worst case scenario realistically how many people are really going to do that.

Because at the end of the day your justification is around it was an in tbc As I said before I want the best version not necessarily the authentic version.

And speaking from someone that played back in the day I can tell you a ton of people tons.

Would have absolutely loved it to of had dual spec I would even go as far as vanilla And yes you are right it is up to the devs in the game designers however they are taking feedback from us.

Because at the end of the day Whatever we say it’s ultimately up to their decision Is there an argument would they have done the seal of blood thing regardless.

I would say A5050 Is it not a secret that drums of battle Were a problem back and day absolutely not.

Because they’re both obvious How are they going to a dress faction balance It’s a waiting game on that.

Am I overestimating that maybe But I will say this faction balance is a problem even now so what is that say.

My point is Your biggest justification is it wasn’t there back in the day so it shouldn’t be in there now

As far is #NoChanges You’re probably right about the whole world buff thing because the simple fact is again it wasn’t a thing back in the day.

But then again that’s a difference between a player base 2004 verses 2021 And one thing I did find interesting that you failed To list Why is the classic PVP system No matter who you talk to.

That thing is cancer It’s cancerous hot garbage it was that lay 15 years ago and it shouldn’t have been re implemented but we wanted it and we got it.

Now is there something like that in the burning crusade no And thank heaven for that however I’m not so naive.

To think that there could be Something as badd in the burning crusade or = it.

That’s my stance on the matter So I Say #DualSpec IN TBC

#nochanges” already gave it their best to destroy Classic and now want to co-opt “#somechanges?”

No thanks.

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What was your vision of classic that nochanges destroyed may I ask?

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I didn’t say “destroyed”, I said “gave it their best to destroy.”

We got 400ms spell batching because of #nochanges. Nuff said.

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You are delusional if you think the intent was to destroy classic.

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I’m going to continue liking every single post that asks for Dual spec and other common sense changes, because Blizzard listening to anyone who ever advocated for “No-changes” was the biggest mistake they ever made with this game.

Even the polls after Classic was announced showed the majority of people wanted those common sense changes. We’re getting them now, and should have had them from day one.

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“Common sense” changes is the worst way to argue for anything. It’s bad faith insinuating that something you want is common sense and other people don’t have common sense.

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Argument of popularity

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Stop this. It is DUAL. As in two. Not duel as in 1v1. Sorry but you’re about the 20th OP I’ve seen making this mistake. Stop it lol.

It’s on par with rouge instead rogue. Ugh.

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Thanks, fixed.

#nochange makes sense for old static media re-release. This game is interactive, some changes are good for the overall health of the game.

The biggest disappointment in classic is the use of patch 1.12 without any tuning. It’s the biggest change; other than that, wow classic 1.12 is largely the same as the old 1.12 vanilla.

The movement to #somechanges means Blizzard does take care of their game, and they want to fix things that are broken in-game

Woops, wrong thread.

This is a subjective call with no clear boundary lines other than when a particular feature was first inserted into the game. LFG as a tool, for example, began in TBC as a way to formalize and publish interested parties of various runs to find people on the server to do that thing. However, LFG turned into the automated group finder and later added the LFR level raiding content, then scenarios, and on and on.

But even this has no real clear start or end point. So #somechanges will be anything and everything people wish to suggest.

Some QoL changes such as a Mount Tab do nothing to the underlying core experience of TBC, but there are some that would adamantly disagree. It is up to Blizzard to decide.

Some QoL changes such as Barbershop add aesthetic customization, but not necessarily new hair styles or colors, that grant people a bit more freedom in deciding how their characters look, but doesn’t change the overall feel of TBC. Others would disagree, but it is up to Blizzard to decide.

Some changes are more extreme like retooling the PvE encounters even further than just pre-nerf, but rather even higher health pools, nastier mechanics, or even new mechanics. Many would disagree with such a change, but it is up to Blizzard to decide.

Notice a pattern?

These are all subject to discussion, disagreement, etc. There actually is no right or wrong answer. I would argue as adamantly for the inclusion of Transmogrification as you might argue for the alteration of Profession bonuses since, as you said, we’re both focusing on our own individual view of things.

Neither of these arguments are necessarily wrong.
Neither of these arguments are necessarily right.

Blizzard gets to sort it out.

But make no mistake, #somechanges means any change the Devs feel fits with what they envision best serves the needs of the TBC Classic crew. If that means Dual Spec gets added, well it gets added. If that means Ring Enchants remain something you can apply, drop the Profession, and keep the power, then so be it. If that means M’uru has extra NPCs he summons to make a hard fight even harder, well that’ll be interesting but that’ll be what we get.

People understand #somechanges just fine. They see an opening to make suggestions, garner like-minded folks, and maybe convince a Dev or two that another tweak is in the best interest overall of the game. There is no strict rule on what can or cannot be suggested.

Not particularly, a lot of people actually have very poor sense so while it may be insulting, it isn’t illogical.

There’s actually two types of arguments here:

  • Argumentum ad populum - This is the fallacy of trying to establish truth from popularity. Popularity doesn’t imply truth, so what this actually is is a non sequitur. However, truth can also be popular, so naming the fallacy really doesn’t defeat the argument.

  • Consensus gentium - This is often poorly defined as the same fallacy as above, but actually isn’t. Rather, this is a criterion of truth under the theory that everyone has the ability to understand and comprehend truth and discern truth from non-truth. Thus, if everyone has this innate sense, and an overwhelming number of people agree about something that wasn’t even needed to be taught, then it is likely true, or “carries the weight of truth” put more eloquently.

Arguments based on the latter are a far more difficult challenge to overcome than the former, but neither can be beaten or refuted by just throwing up a fallacy name. Consensus alone isn’t sufficient for a complete theory, but it is more than sufficient for a foundation of theory.

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Yeah, I played Vanilla, TBC, WOTLK, Cata… I want Dual Spec at least

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Well said. For myself, I would like what originally came out because I didn’t start playing till WotLK. TBC is when wow really started to take off so I’d like to experience what that was about. That being said, I will be happy with whatever the Blizz devs choose to give us because, for me anyway, classic is way better than retail and I look forward to the day in a couple years when we ‘progress’ to WotLK.

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Spoken like someone who has never played a healing druid in vanilla or TBC.

Plenty of groups will outright reject you for not having a rez spell. Even though in TBC, every single dungeon graveyard is close to the entrance, people don’t care and will still reject you on the basis that you are a druid and can only rez 1 person every 30 minutes. Even a “confident group” will still choose a Priest or Shaman or Paladin over a Druid, because having the ability to rez is always better than not having it, and Druid doesn’t really bring a whole lot that the other healers can’t.

Whether or not you get invited to dungeon groups comes down to “is the group leader willing to take a druid, or sit and spam LF HEAL LF HEAL for 15 more minutes?

It made sense for Druid to not have a rez spell in vanilla because it was originally designed as a “jack of all trades” class. But that concept went out the window throughout vanilla and is mostly gone in TBC as well. There’s no reason that Druid should not have a regular rez spell. It only has negative impacts, not positive ones.

This isn’t fun or interesting game design, it’s “your class is bad because the game designers made it bad, have fun getting rejected from groups because no rez”.

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