Pending Hunter Updates - Next Week's Wish List

Yes.

Ehhh… This only works if the talent is already totally obligatory, easily pathed to and interestingly pathed from… OR if you buff the hell out of all other talents or there’d be no net loss to gameplay in cutting the maximum effect’s power in half. Otherwise, you make those talents obligatory where one formerly had choice.

So, vibe-wise/broadly agreed, but… keep some of those balancing nuances in mind.

Aside: Tuning talents higher gets a lot easier if you baseline basic situational skills like Tranquilizing Shot, Concussive Shot, Countershot, Misdirection, Tar Trap, etc. Else, you proportionately increase the cost in personal performance, utility, durability, and the like of taking those talents.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this. Do you just want to see Death Chakram removed? Bestial Wrath taken off the GCD (though, that has zero impact on button bloat)? What, exactly?

This many will likely not be a fan of. Moreover, if you’re going to add choice nodes anyways… why not give a means to avoid it despite allowing players to take it from a far earlier level?

Why wouldn’t you just baseline them, then? Just to make them easier to find in the spellbook? What’s the motive here to purposely adding non-choices to what we must spend our talent points on?

Me like.

It’s not a good mechanic regardless. If we’re to get something in its place (or hopefully to far greater effect), I’d rather it just be something altogether new and far better designed.

Not a fan. Bestial Wrath is effectively a non-CD, but its uniquely being that way, is kind of fun. However, I in no way want my actual CD, CotW, to follow suit. I like having at least one real, separately timeable CD.

Nice.

The concept sounds fine, but the example is worrying. That’s not interactivity. That’s just an example of degrading an existing optimization (noting TTK) by shifting its balancing point.

I could see “causing Serpent Sting to tick more quickly”, so that one actually affects the other, but making a default choice (maintain all of your DoTs) even less varied from isn’t interactivity; it’s what you’d have done anyways, but now with even less thought worthwhile.

I know that sounds like a nitpick, but such distinctions are pretty vital. They make the difference between improving and worsening gameplay.

Same as above. Good direction. Terrible example. You’d have taken an effect whose problems are primarily tuning (of its % effect per point of stat and the balance of Butchery’s damage vs. WFB’s) and made it entirely one-note instead, in this case without even giving the option to avoid Wildfire Bomb entirely, which would be the only advantage of a Mastery that affects only one skill.

Not a fan, for largely the same reasons given in reference to CotE.

Also not a fan. Anti-synergies allow for individually strong abilities for the fact that they can’t so well be stacked, which in turn allows for more intuitive use of skills towards their actual strengths (CA for AoE, Spearhead for ST, FotE for Execute, etc.).

Survival needs a bit more burstiness available to it, yes, but that shouldn’t come from shallowing out its CDs to make everything stackable. Ideally… from buffing the hell out of nearly all Survival talents, siphoned from the baseline, such that Coordinated Assault and Spearhead can each be more powerful in their own right.

And yes, for all intents and purposes, Mongoose Bite and the fact that the Mongoose Fury window buffs only it… is very much like a CD a la Coordinated Assault, albeit with fallback value as well. Optimizing it is a commitment.

There’s no point in doing that through talent options, specifically, as doing so just forces the tree to split itself up, giving melee and ranged each at most two-thirds an actual tree.

Instead, simply use a holistic passive to convert normally ranged abilities to their augmented melee equivalents. Without a melee weapon equipped, the talents and the actual skills will look like X. With a melee weapon equipped, the talents will look like Y, and when also in melee (or charge/dash/blink-attack) range, the skills will likewise look like Y. Now you don’t have any outright wasted talents and thereby less accessible surroundings for them, even if you may still wish to include a choice node here or there in core locations.

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Very incorrect, surv has the worst spec tree in the game.

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And you just lost all credibility. No baseline dps abilities, far more 2 point nodes than any other spec save BM, most of which are just % increases, a mastery that you want 0 of because every other stat is always better, talents available to take but not actually even use (barrage), the lowest dps aside from the augmentors personal dps and perhaps the 3rd spec of rogue, a cooldown that requires macros to make work properly.

But, yes, aside from all of that, survival isn’t broke.

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That’s the case for a few specs, but that’s a tuning issue.

That’s the case for every single spec/class/tree ?

Tuning issue not design.

pack leader fixes that ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Many talents that get reduced to 1pt just end up having the full 2pt bonus for just 1 cost. Having a 2pt node now is just poor design since there are so many specs now with minimal to 0 2pt nodes.

yet SV has a clear gameplay loop and different gameplay hooks for things like hero trees or tier sets or other borrowed power to look at and play with.

SV and BM are not broken - they are functional and fun to play. MM is just a mess

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I have something on this too… the ability to change your pet’s specialization, a dramatic reduction in the stable size (for a good reason, keep reading), and a change to Tame Beast.

The idea here is that you can Tame Beast even if you have a pet active, and your pet can even tank for you while taming. Upon success, the beast disappears and you learn its appearance.

If you don’t have an active pet, then the beast becomes your new pet as normal. But here is where the stables reduction comes in.

When you go to the barber, you can change your pet’s appearance to ANY appearance within that pet’s Pet Family. So like, if you have a cat, the barber could turn your cat into any other cat family beast you’ve tamed.

Dunno how well this would work with Undead pets, maybe the chosen skin has a note saying ‘this pet will now be classified as Undead’, and you can also make these pet appearances account-wide too!

Edit: A hunter can still have multiple of the same pet family, each with different skins and specializations, but because you can more or less pick your favorite pet family, pick its spec and freely change its appearance, you wouldn’t need however many stables slots we have now! The reduction isn’t actually necessary, I just assume it could be done freely if the above changes are made.

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Ohh perfect, then we dont need to worry about anything. Hunters is gucci for the next Xpac.

No, you misunderstood them. You literally cannot use Barrage when playing Survival as it’s intended to be played (IE: with a melee weapon). Barrage specifically works only with a ranged weapon equipped and yet Survival can still talent into it.

No other spec in the game has a talent that they’re able to take that they cannot actually use.

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A guardian talented into moonkin form gets about as much use of it as a survival hunter talented into barrage.

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Even so, they can use it for flap if nothing else.

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You can also weapon swap.

Which, again, has tended to make many of them a whole lot more obligatory than before.

Scarcely any more a mess, really, than BM or SV. It’s got some undertuned skills, some overtuned skills, and the usual bloat, same as the others. It also has only middling build freedom, the same as the others.

That wastes 3 additional seconds of uptime swapping to and back. So… no.
That is, again, about as realistic as a Guardian playing predominantly in Moonkin Form.

Using moonkin form for flap is more efficient than doing that as SV

sentinel shouldn’t scream “THIS IS A NIGHT ELF HUNTER” because i am not, in fact, a night elf hunter. i don’t want to play like tyrande or maiev or anything else living, i want the sentinel owl to turn into a bat or gargoyle that hovers above me throwing plague on the ground (or something equally easy to solve with a tooltip change and a recolored animation/model swap)

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Good suggestions honestly. Also stun and anti heal while using lone wolf

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It’s design because the mastery doesn’t affect important parts of the kit. No amount of tuning is going to make it affect the kit. Boosting the value of the mastery then just devalues the other portions of your kit.

Having to swap weapons to use a talent, which you can’t then use your other abilities with, is not intended gameplay and you know it. Especially since the weapon doesn’t even drop for our spec.

No it doesn’t. You still have to turn off the autocasts with a macro an then turn them back on. Also, having kill command sometimes cause the pet to use their basic attack on demand doesn’t fix this. You won’t want to always press kill command, or it can be on cooldown. So you still need to manage the pet’s basic attack. And the fact that you think taking a particular hero talent set to FIX a cooldown just shows the ridiculous levels you’re willing to argue to be right.

Guardians very much can use the ranged abilities on the boomkin side of the tree. If they go boomkin form (a talent which no longer exists in TWW btw), they get more spellpower for the ranged abilities. They get spell power equal to their attack power, so it scales with the weapons they’re wearing, boomkin form just makes it scale better. So if they want to dps from range (boss doing something that forces them out, flying things, ect) they very much can. This isn’t even remotely the same as needing to get a separate weapon that doesn’t even drop for your spec in order to use the talents. So try again.

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I don’t think you’re understanding what’s happening. They have the same amount of points we do. They have more talent options and more powerful options. Turning Beast Cleave into a 1pt node does not make it any more obligatory than it is now, it just gives you more options to pick from.

There is no reason to have two point nodes in 2024.

You can’t seriously be advocating to have two point nodes, right?

Okay? The point was “no other class has a talent that other specs won’t use” and that was proven false.

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I do understand what’s happening. I’m literally playing with those changes, right now, across each spec that’s seen point-consolidation.

But asking to double the per-point power of some talents and not others has exactly the obvious imbalancing effects across previously optional talents that one would expect.

Read what you responded to:

If it’s already totally obligatory, it’s already totally obligatory and balance is a non-concern. That’s not the case for most, though, such as Steady Focus, Precise Shots, One With the Wild, etc.

I can, yes, since that means more customizability and either the ability to take on stronger specific effects without having to take up more node space OR reduced punishment for taking utility talents (which is the only other possible outcome of roughly doubling the power-per-talent-point of all other talents to maintain actual choice).

  • Again, I feel raising the value of each talent is a good idea, so long as one has a way to also buff the utility talents, such as by baselining utility tools and then perhaps even buffing multiple utilities at once in a given utility talent.
    • But if you constantly make things like Natural Mending and Rejuvenating Winds one-pointers AND add new talents of similar effect and power elsewhere on which to spend those points spared, as suggested above, you’re going to have more and more Hunters who opt out of Tranq Shot, Misdirection, etc., which makes the class duller, less flavorful, and more annoying to take (and therefore less likely to be taken).

What I can’t advocate for is requiring both/all points available in a node to path through it, nor two-point nodes being directly identical in what they offer with each point. It should take only the one, regardless, ever, and the first and later points should be better tailored to typical purposes.

But that’s it; we should correct that basic flaw of talent trees in general, not insist arbitrarily on breaking talent balance and therefore reducing talent choice.

You’re missing the forest for the trees here. Many specs are moving to having fewer than 5 two point nodes, with a handful of 0. I don’t agree with that direction, but that’s what direction the design space is going, and having a class with all 3 specs having more than 10 is just crippling yourself on purpose. There is no benefit to having specs have so many expensive nodes, when specs with cheaper nodes 1) have more options 2) are more powerful.

Spending two points to get the same power other specs get with one point just feels bad.

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I’d add from a previous post I made from the feedback thread on it that they could also steal from Sylvanas’s boss fight in Shadowlands… wild how badly they missed the mark when they could pull from Sylvanas in TWO of their games for this hero class lol

Good post, agree with the general ideas and ultimately I think we all just want a cool end result that makes us feel valuable, useful, and stronger in general (in terms of what we bring to the table since all numbers can be tuned - but please dont make numbers bad)

Here’s hoping.

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