Patty matson in a podcast about sylvanas

[Deathowns-gnomeregan]

I love Patty and Sylvanas, they are both awesome!

[Withpuppys-nazgrel (Withpuppys)]

I hope that heart was freshly harvested

[Carmageddon-hyjal (Carmageddon)]

and last time i checked jaina (sadly) didn’t wipe out a city full of civilians.
it’s amussing that you try to compare them, Lol.

I mean, that’s just because Thrall caught the wave she launched at Orgrimmar. Twice.

I’m not sure that attempting to wipe out a city and being foiled makes you morally any better than attempting to wipe out a city and succeeding. Jaina was just lucky that Thrall was there, because she was trying to do exactly what Sylvanas did.

A better argument would be that Jaina was less responsible because of her mental state at the time, while Sylvanas seemed to be coldly calculating.

[Syiax-azralon]

He was fighting for it, then he realized Sylvanas wanted to make it into a terrorist organization, so he betrayed the terrorist Horde not HIS Horde.

no? she did not turned the horde into a terrorist faction, she embraced the conquer side of the horde just that, her reasons are not clear but she did nothing that the horde have not done in the past. so you’re just put your headcannon into this, sadfang did abandon the horde for no reason than ‘’ muh honor is more important than the lives of horde soldiers’’ simple as that.

In Cata he abandoned it to save the literal world, in Pandaria he still had to heal the damage done to the world(according to ToW), In WoD he rejoined us to battle the Iron Horde, he only unjustifiably abandoned us in Legion.

While not a perfect leader by any means, he had to make these tough decisions 3/4 times to abandon the Horde to save the world.

you can save the world without abandoning the horde, is that simple, he could have made a Council to rule in his name, but still be a part of the hierarchy of the horde, but he just LEFT, no one asked him, not even the aspects, I know you can’t do two things at the same time, but you can be a part of it without leading it.

He tried reason, several times.

In fact, reason is literally the ONLY thing Baine does in this game.

-He tried to reason in BtS, before the war begun, in which Sylvanas responded by forcing Baine to cease his diplomatic relationship with Anduin.

Baine never choose his ppl, he always sought out the alliance before acting, man he was sooo predictable that Garrosh used him, knowing that he would open his mouth to the alliance. and the same is happening again in BFA, he could have talk to sylvanas, Nathanos and showed that for him to TRUST sylvanas she should TRUST Him back, saying that he does believe she has the horde interesting in priority but that she does not show that for others and he would want to understand it,a simple talk, but he prefers to go talk with jaina and anduin first.

-He reasoned at the Battle for Lordaeron, in which Sylvanas responded by telling him he’s welcome to get himself killed along with saurfang.

they were in the middle of a battle there were no time for ‘’ YOU ABANDONED SAURFANG TO DIE’’ time was against the horde, he could have that same talk after the battle and not in the middle of it cuz that is not ‘’ reasoning’’ but just pointing fingers at others while they’re hotheaded.

-He reasoned with her even after he committed treason, she responded by murdering Zelling right in front of all the gathered Horde leaders.

he betrayed her and the horde by doing it and zelling was part of it, a pity? yes but understandable, she knew, we knew that baine was not to be trusted, that he always cast his lot with the blue side and not red one… I would have done worst if I was her.

not what the battle for stromgarde shows.

she is a leader but shadow of what she was, cata, pandaria and Legion treated her like a girl in peril and not the amazon queen she was portrait before
Bfa tried to rescue that but we needed more action, more Night elf involvement in the war and tyrande not being so helpless, I knwo weakness is good to be shown but why her is the only one to suffer from this so others can be what she cant? that what I meant was a shadow. they ‘‘nerfed’’ her so others in the alliance looked good or wiser, and it was not necessary.

The thing is, everyone else you listed aren’t selfish.

let do this.

-Thrall left the Horde to save the planet.

but was resistant to come back in mists, saying that the horde was not his problem anymore, even turning his back to Vol’jin in cata, I know that mending the world is important but he turned a blind eye and acted like it was not his problem to care, that was selfish and only things have gone bananas he took up the guilty and acted like obi-wan in ep 3 saying ‘’ I FAILED YOU ANAKIN’’ but everyone knows that garrosh’s kill was for the alliance to take so Jaina could have ended her cycle of hatred a theme for mists that was brought back in bfa.

-Saurfang betrayed the Horde to save the Horde.

he could have done like vol’jin and not betrayed the horde or stayed and helped it from within. but he did not.

-Baine betrayed the Horde to save the Horde.

baine betrayed the horde so he could be in peace with himself and not with the horde.

-Turalyon abandoned the Alliance to save Azeroth and likely countless other worlds.

and still is a racists that at the first glance would gladly slaughter the horde, have him not learned nothing in 1k years?

Each of these people did something selfish for a non-selfish reason. Sylvanas and Gallywix on the other hand literally only does selfish things for selfish reasons,

Sylvanas died for Quel’thalas, she saved anveena and asked for nothing in return and even protected her secret, sylvanas helped with the elves plight in tbc, and only asked for their help when the horde demanded and Lor’themar showed that he was not inclined to help the horde, so she forced his hand.
Sylvanas tried to reconciliate with her sister 2 times, and opened her heart only to be betrayed by both and be called a monster by the one she admired.
she sought eyer powers so she could give better bodies for the forsaken so they would not decay or suffer in this unlive, just like nathanos, this is unclear yes but she did not used the horde for her personal quest like many ppl claim, she gave them to us to go after the relic to save azeroth.
so she is selfish but she is like others too she has non-selfish reasons, she is more complete as character than most in this list. ahhh

[Murdra-wildhammer (Murdra)]

It will also pretty much make Bolvar’s sacrifice at the end of wrath pointless. Why bother having him shoulder that responsibility just to kill him off and have someone else take his spot?

Unless of course the real reason is because no one actually cares about the title of Lich King and just want to find any way to keep Sylvanas front and center of the storyline.

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

I mean … despite her lack of presence up until this point, the plot is bending over backwards to let her accomplish what she is attempting to accomplish. The Horde characters that SHOULD have had immense issues with Teldrassil were forced to sit on their hands until it was convenient for them to move against her. The Alliance in contrast gets handicapped both functionally and ideologically to ensure she has time to accomplish her “True Objectives”.

So … yeah, could totally see the official Lich Queen.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

For it to be genocide Sylvanas would have to want to destroy them solely because their race, religion, or culture .

Sylvanas simply doesn’t care about any of that her goal is not to destroy them as a people

Except Sylvanas targeted them specifically to destroy them as a people.

[citation needed]

From Sylvanas’ internal monologue in A Good War:

This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal. Losing their homes and their leaders would have ended the kaldorei as a nation, if not a people.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

no? she did not turned the horde into a terrorist faction, she embraced the conquer side of the horde just that

Embraced my @$$, she straight up went the Garrosh route and downright went straight to hatemongering and manipulation to swoon the Horde into a war they personally neither needed to wage or had any stakes in.

The “conquer” side of the Horde was disbanded when we deposed Garrosh.

sadfang did abandon the horde for no reason than ‘’ muh honor is more important than the lives of horde soldiers’’ simple as that.

You mean the “lives of Horde soldiers” that Sylvanas sacrificed right in front of Saurfang, those Horde lives? He abandoned the HER Horde the second he realized his Warchief was amoral lunatic who was more than willing to place the rest of the Horde on a sacrificial altar if it meant achieving her vague personal goals.

you can save the world without abandoning the horde, is that simple, he could have made a Council to rule in his name, but still be a part of the hierarchy of the horde, but he just LEFT, no one asked him, not even the aspects, I know you can’t do two things at the same time, but you can be a part of it without leading it.

Look, man, I’m not going to lie; I don’t really know why he couldn’t have thought up of at least one the numerous better solutions to the problem. The narrative just assumed he couldn’t keep up with the faction politics while also doing his job as super shaman.

While I agree that there was definitely more he could’ve done to keep the Horde well insured in his absence, it definitely can’t have been an easy decision to make given his circumstances at the time. The Horde was still relatively young and he had no way of knowing how the faction would react to a non-orc Warchief, so he saw fit to stick with the status-quo.

Baine never choose his ppl, he always sought out the alliance before acting

Why would he consult Sylvanas, a character who Vol’jin, his close friend, stated he NEVER trusted as he lay on his deathbed, over people like Jaina or Anduin whom he’s consorted in numerous times? Also, he does have people in the Horde he consults with such as Hamuul and Saurfang, idk who else he can really confide in, he’s not all that close with his current peers like he was with people like Thrall and Vol’jin.

he could have talk to sylvanas, Nathanos and showed that for him to TRUST sylvanas she should TRUST Him back, saying that he does believe she has the horde interesting in priority but that she does not show that for others and he would want to understand it,a simple talk, but he prefers to go talk with jaina and anduin first.

So that’s HER problem though. Her untrustworthiness is all entirely on Sylvanas and it’s for her to absolve herself of that general perception. Hiding secrets from the other leaders is an absolutely terrible way to go about that.

Also I’d just like to repeat that some of Vol’jins last words was a upfront declaration that he has NEVER trusted Sylvanas.

they were in the middle of a battle there were no time for ‘’ YOU ABANDONED SAURFANG TO DIE’’ time was against the horde, he could have that same talk after the battle and not in the middle of it cuz that is not ‘’ reasoning’’ but just pointing fingers at others while they’re hotheaded.

Still, that’s not exactly a great way to generate a sense of trust from those she expects to remain loyal to her. She makes a similar dumb@$$ remark when instead of trying to coerce Saurfang back to her side, she instead opts to not only mock his dead son but also mock his honor as well.

For someone who demands loyalty as much as she does, she’s not been doing a great job encouraging it.

he betrayed her and the horde by doing it and zelling was part of it, a pity? yes but understandable

No it wasn’t Zelling was of little to no threat to her plans and on the contrary was a massive boon to the Horde, making a lot of their plans during the war campaign possible with his inside knowledge of Kul’tiras and sea priest magics. All she did was have a valuable asset needlessly murdered and it’s not getting her Derek back either.

she knew, we knew that baine was not to be trusted, that he always cast his lot with the blue side and not red one… I would have done worst if I was her.

Baine is not trustworthy? That’s rich coming from one who has gone behind the Hordes’ back on numerous occasions such as the development of the blight, the use of it in Gilneas, the murder of a Kor’kron officer, and her little quest for power in Stormheim. Without the consent or knowledge of the other leaders of the Horde.

but was resistant to come back in mists, saying that the horde was not his problem anymore

And yet, he DID come back in MoP and was crucial in garnering support from Orcs who didn’t support Garrosh’s warmongering along with Saurfang and Eitrigg.

even turning his back to Vol’jin in cata, I know that mending the world is important but he turned a blind eye and acted like it was not his problem to care, that was selfish

Yeah because saving the entire planet from imminent destruction far outweighs petty faction squabbles, and he had absolutely NO CLUE how Garrosh was going to turn out, he thought Garrosh was ready and was wrong, and he has since accepted responsibility for all the pain he had indirectly caused, what else can he do?

he could have done like vol’jin and not betrayed the horde or stayed and helped it from within. but he did not.

Have we noticed that not once has he been seen actively working alongside the Alliance and has either been working solo or with Baine and Thrall. I have yet to do a scenario in which Saurfang directly tasks us to be in cahoots with Jaina, Anduin, or any other Alliance agents. Like Vol’jin, he decided to take a breather for a patch, gather his friends, and stoke up a rebellion to which the Alliance eventually gets wind of and takes advantage of. I fail to see how this is different.

baine betrayed the horde so he could be in peace with himself and not with the horde.

No, Baine betrayed the Horde so the Horde could have a stronger chance at brokering a lasting peace with the Alliance, so the two factions wouldn’t have to continue to exhaust themselves through pointless wars and wasting lives on both sides.

and still is a racists that at the first glance would gladly slaughter the horde, have him not learned nothing in 1k years?

Idk how much you’d expect him to learn in the short amount of time he’s been back? Last time we heard of him, the Alliance was still at war with the Orcish Horde of old being led by Ner’zhul. He’s from a different era in which things were vastly different from what they are now.

Sylvanas died for Quel’thalas, she saved anveena and asked for nothing in return and even protected her secret

That’s living Sylvanas, a person who current Sylvanas has clearly denounced according to her warbringers in which she called that version of herself a “fool”. We’re talking about current undead Sylvanas.

Sylvanas tried to reconciliate with her sister 2 times, and opened her heart only to be betrayed by both and be called a monster by the one she admired.

Are we forgetting how she intended to murder that same sister in both those instances as well. The 1st time in Warcrimes after Garrosh was sucessfully poisoned, she intended to murder Vareesa and convert her into a Forsaken, expecting her to abandom her children and the second time during Three Sisters in which she literally had Dark Rangers poised to kill both Alleria and Vareesa the entire time.

She IS a monster.

she sought eyer powers so she could give better bodies for the forsaken so they would not decay or suffer in this unlive, just like nathanos

Yeah, and then she goes on to stuff the gathering in Arathi which gave Forsaken an opportunity to rekindle and find happiness with their living relatives, and murdered a whole bunch of them because it was actually working and she feared that she’ll lose their loyalty.

this is unclear yes but she did not used the horde for her personal quest like many ppl claim

Yes she did, the majority of her forces were off fighting the Alliance while the PC did all the heavy lifting with token assistance from Cullen.

so she is selfish but she is like others too she has non-selfish reasons

In some instances, yes, but for all the wrong reasons.

she is more complete as character than most in this list. ahhh

Bar Thrall, yes, I suppose you’re right about that.

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

From Sylvanas’ internal monologue in A Good War:

This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal. Losing their homes and their leaders would have ended the kaldorei as a nation, if not a people.

Hey look the literal embodiment of A Good War that pretty much proves the reasons she gave to Saurfang to get him involved in this conflict were total BS, and that she does not share them. She used arguments she believed would work on someone who has lived through FAR too many wars, and they did. Her annoying personal objectives for this conflict (and burning that tree) remain as opaque as ever…

[Murdra-wildhammer (Murdra)]

I’m not saying the Lich Queen theory won’t be done, I’m saying it’d be stupid if does happen.

[Agathorn-emerald-dream (Agathorn)]

That’s Debie Mae West, the women who been voicing Maiev Shadowsong Since wc3.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

Really? It sounds like Sylvanas so much!
Now days Maeiv sounds like she has a sore throat.

[Aviala-wyrmrest-accord (Aviala)]

Now days Maeiv sounds like she has a sore throat.

Her voice actress had to leave for a while during Legion to get throat surgery - which I’ve also heard is the reason Maiev disappeared from the plot for a bit - so I expect any differences in the character’s voice are due to that. Glad to see (well, to hear) that she’s still up and going after that!

[Agathorn-emerald-dream (Agathorn)]

Theey have different voices with similar tones if that makes any sense. The Voice actress for Sylvanas has a smoother, more sensual tone while Debie Mae West has the women’s form of a baratone. I’m not deep into the topic of voices but thats the difference for me.

Both distinct, but one is very developed, i think thats ths right way to put it.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

I hate Sylvanas’ voice.
its like she is speaking through a plastic drinking cup.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

I’m not sure that attempting to wipe out a city and being foiled makes you morally any better than attempting to wipe out a city and succeeding.

a direct emotional and justifed reprisal vs a calculated move in a war of agression. hardly the same thing.
and plus she actually was stopped by friends because she surrounds with good people. does the other have the same? and she also regret it.

i mean, sometimes i wish she was the monster some say she is. that is why i said “sadly” becuse honestly, she should have done it.

[Anyaceltica-llane (Anyaceltica)]

Now days Maeiv sounds like she has a sore throat.

Channeling the Best Warden™ takes a toll.

[Aussielight-dathremar (Aussielight)]

“We got away with it.”
“As usual.”

-Me and Sylvanas when we escape with a slap on the wrist again .

Will you be doing the ‘Royal Wave’, or the ‘Pocahontas Wave’ when you escape?

[Galenar-khazgoroth (Galenar)]

In general doing pack a day smoker and/or gargling rocks voices is hard from what I understand. It’s the same reason Marvin Monroe was retired from the Simpsons.

[Frankenfiend-the-scryers]

Y’all are all high if you’re trying to extrapolate plot points from the way a voice actress has been couched to view her character so she can continue to lend her voice to her.

I’m sure the guy who voiced Garrosh thought his character wasn’t evil as well, and had very good reasons for everything he did that we just weren’t aware of.

As players we often are not privy to the actual motivations of individual characters and are just left to guess as to why they took this or that action. I really doubt they ever sit in the recording booth and one of the VA’s ask ‘what is my characters motivation in this scene?’ and the team responds with ‘TheY’Re eViL!’