You won’t get nowhere near that cap in first few months, so I don’t see why not take that 10% armor.
https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/055031105-053241330001531
This seems ok. Maybe -2% wep and +2% armor, but yeah.
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Yeah theres nothing wrong with that spec, the tree is just not good for raid level tanking though, redoubt and reckoning requiring you to get crit to increase blocking and threat output is just no bueno outside of a 5/10 man. Add in all the +def gear is almost pure str/stam leaving consecration spam out of the question for trying it that way, lol.
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Consecration is more efficient for threat:mana ratio as it is guaranteed to do its thing. HS will be a huge part of your threat once you get your block chance up.
Personally while doing dungeons, it’s better to just use consecration and just stagger casts as needed and save judgement for snap aggro.
Oh yeah raid tanking is just not the area that paladins excelled in, and even with afew ability changes withing the idea of what a paladin in concept is would not change that without adding in some things from tbc. As a paladin tank you could judge I think it was seal of insight or seal of wisdom, which would grant you back mana on hit to counteract drain on your resource/mana from using your abilities once you had good hold of threat.
Any changes that might be taken would I think need to be based in keeping the idea of how the paladin is mechanically working intact, while improving how it plays an the enjoyment of the play style. Like if you were to want to give them a taunt the hand of reckoning we got in tbc is just i think a bad idea, where as reusing the seal of righteous fury that we had prior to 1.9 might work better, since you could adjust the judgement portion to have a taunt effect. even altering of the exorcism to be usable on all targets with some bonus effect when used against demons an undead would not be a bad change, since very few attacks in vanilla wow were exclusively unusable on specific monster types, though this is not true of cc abilities like turn undead as other such abilities had that restriction like sap an banish or shackle undead.
No there isnt. But not only because they have no taunt, but because they run out of mana and cant function at all afterward.
In some later expansion paladins got a talent that granted you a % of the incoming heals mana cost to your mana pool and tanking was totally fine. You never ran out of mana as long as someone was healing you, but in vanilla, not possible.
Yeah even with having judgement of insight/wisdom on a target the mana regen was hard, unless you really down ranked, and outside of either upping how much mana that judgement gave back or reducing the mana cost of spells the paladin used you would need to make some deeper changes to paladins.
No this is bad information, holy shield is way more mana efficient, it costs half the mana, does twice the damage and its damage does an additional 20% threat, while increasing block by 30% meaning greatly reduced incoming damage and more threat from blessing of sanctuary, consecration is literally just for grabbing packs if your group is too ADD and can’t wait 3 seconds to get aggro on everything. Honestly you’re better off going into ret for mana cost reduction on seals/judgement and improve judgment for single target aggro.
The only thing Protadins do that is special is AoE threat, not having it is just a really bad thing. I can’t really speak for whether or not Consecration is worth it but it helps a lot for threat on all targets whereas a Warrior has to rely on Engineering and TF.
I understand the confusion, but paladins generate aoe threat more efficiently through getting hit and blocking, consecrate is only good if people are too impatient to wait to DPS, which will happen cause the paladin tank will have to drink after every pull where, only using holy shield the paladin can chain pull groups because he’ll have mana to keep his main damage reduction ability going instead of being oom cause he casted 2 consecrates, lol.
I tanked when seal/judgement of fury was still a thing, that was hell, lol.
Holy shield is a good source of threat when you are dealing with being the main target, though at the point you are not the main target that threat is pretty much nullified. Consecrate can be in some ways a good source of aoe threat on targets not hitting you, that you might need to pick up, or as a buffer if you are not the best at tab tanking to maintain good threat on all targets around you.
Oh yeah how they implemented Seal of rightous fury was weird, and to me back then even over reworking it into the self buff, it could have been better used modifying it to add to the seal/judgement style of tanking for paladins more. I never liked hand of Reckoning even though it was useful it felt weird, but had wished they would have kept seal of righteousness an built the taunt into the judging portion of the seal.
Consecrate is definitely the best way to save a group during an accidental pull, but that also goes on the tank, the group should be pulled so that doesn’t happen.
Consecration almost doubles the tps of BoS and HS combo over the same time frame allowing the dps to go ham that much sooner. Either way, I prefer to guarantee control over threat than playing the lottery at the start of a fight. It’s definitely more efficient than spamming judgement every 8 seconds.
Make your own guild. Start your own raids and be the tank. Prot Pally can tank. But can you tank as well as a Warrior? Probably not. But you can do it. The same way Rets can dps. Can they do it? Yes; majority suck but they can. Like everyone else said: Its viable but not optimal. Your job will be harder to accomplish. Its up to you to find enjoyment in the struggle/challenge. I mained Ret since Vanilla and even raided Ret in TBC. Its hard. VERY hard. But I found enjoyment in the challenge of proving people wrong.
Keep in mind that if you havent played Vanilla before Prot paladin is very very very different from retail. You might not like its gameplay at all.
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SoFury was removed for the simple fact that it was brokenly OP once you figured out the mechanic for it. It gave you 5 chances to proc on hit effects. 5 chances for JoL/W, 5 chances to proc thunderfury, etc. I can’t imagine the destruction that could have happened if a prot paladin had thunderfury before procs procing procs was nerfed.
The judgement was also broken as it gave a flat 300+ threat every time the target was hit by holy damage: holy shield, consecration, ret aura (Seal of Righteousness was bugged and you weren’t guaranteed a proc until it was fixed in 1.9).
Instead of reusing the old seal which is every prot paladins wet dream, why not add the taunt to seal of justice instead. You know what, they should just make SoJustice give bonus threat like SoFury did and every gripe about prot tanking would be nullified.
Oh quite which is why I suggested altering the judge portion not merely adding it on without a change. Adding a taunt onto justice would be quite interesting, but overall what would you take away from justice to compensate for it? The judge affect is nice when either you have a mob, or several mobs, start running away an a dps might miss slowing them or you need more slows. As a tank i like to be able to the ability to slow targets myself in such situations.
I never said reuse it without changes to it, as in 1.9 is when we got the self buff so the additional threat it gave is somewhat (not completely) remedied. With it’s removal an functionality somewhat shifted it leaves a open seal that could be used to add some functionality into the class that was otherwise lacking. Having no taunt is not a game breaker, but gaining one that suits how the class plays thru reworking a seal we had to facilitate it would not be a bad thing.
Personally i think it would be better to get the ability to use exo, and holy wrath as standard without a quite odd restriction. Very few damaging spells had a type requirement on them like these two, most cc abilities had this which is understandable, even holy priests holy damage spells did not have this requirement on them. Giving paladins the ability to use exo an holy wrath on all targets, but maybe doing less damage or when used on undead/demons it alwatys hit for max damage, we would have another tool to aoe tank as well as a pulling mechanic. This to me is abit more important overall, as getting a taunt would be nice yet on taunt is not going to make or break the class.
How would you rework the seal portion of it to make it balanced, considering we had the righteous fury self buff potentially in classic?
Their isn’t a need for it as the loss in intuitiveness and the high mana cost makes up for it, including the short cooldown. It would still be almost never used when compared to bear or warrior.
Like a SoRighteousness that is actually capable of making up the loss of tps and longevity from SoFury? I’m not even talking about the judgement either. Base tps of SoR with RF up and imp SoR talent 5/5 is ~40. SoF is 90 which could be increased by 15% through a talent to 103. If you discount the judgement, then yes the changes in 1.9 are an overall buff in theoretical maximum threat when not factoring in the benefits the extra chances for procs would provide.
If I were to rework seals, I would do 1 thing: divide them between damage and utility (crusader is sitting on a fence, but I would put it on utility based on the judgement) and have them both able to be active at the same time, only damage seals are removed when judged. If I had one more thing to make paladin tanking better I would have Redoubt proc every time Holy Shield was activated. If I wanted to add a taunt I would probably just add a straight up taunt ability.
To be fair to shaman, I would probably add a 50% cost reduction to the next 2 shocks cast after using storm strike.
You won’t be useless, but your never going to be as good as a prot warrior at tanking. You take more damage and provide less threat. You have mana issues in long fights as well.
That said there is probably a guild out there that won’t care, or you can even make your own and nominate yourself as MT. However do so with the understanding that you will be making it harder on your guild to clear content.
Having a taunt that is also a slow, or atleast makes targets not run at low hp is pretty nice. Also that would depend on content in raids i would agree, but in a dungeon run i could see alot of pallies using it as it would be the only option not on along cd. The need to put up an then judge a seal to taunt might be something odd, and the mana ost could be an issue, but getting two things for one can offset that.
Well yet, but that is not adding so much as buffing, which as a fact was a nice change. What I am saying is that with the function of sofury being made a self buff, that means we lost a full seal/judgement, which could have had some functionality an use worked into the class via reworking it. I was using the idea of when you might judge the seal of fury it would function as a taunt, but that does not mean that would be the only option it could have.
I in someways agree that dividing them would be worth it, though I might work it as split it three ways. As much as I can understand hwo mechanically it would be better to have a taunt as a separate ability,it just feels off which is part of why i thought putting it as a judgement effect.
For me to improve paladin tanking specifically i would say giving the paladins a true pulling mechanic would be more my choice. like allowing us to use exo and holy wrath on all targets, but to keep some of the idea of it being more effective on undead/demons is that they are always hit for maximum damage. This would allow us to pull easier even los pulling better, allow for better snap aggro on pull too somewhat, though the other idea i like is exo working as a taunt if there was some method of getting it instant cast (this i think is just too much to work in without changing too much of classic). An in the case of holy wrath that would be better aoe snap threat too.
They fine.
Just tank dungeons as prot/holy hybrid. It works pretty well and you can AOE pull better than warriors in most dungeons. Warriors are better raid tanks because you have so many people able to pull aggro and they can stack sunder which is easy to cause high threat.