This, ret is so poorly designed with aura of reckoning, I hate it so much. It’s unfun for both sides.
I feel that the entire Paladin class absolutely need a rework: base play system and our talents. I feel that over the years Paladin core identity and abilities have been whittled down to a handful of easily identifiable effects (wings, blinding light, consecration, our trusty steed).
Worse, when the team that had constantly changed our identity had to BOOST our identity, they’d completely forgotten who and what we ARE. Now, they’re just adlibbing a bunch of stuff, and filling in the blanks with old spells…without taking into account that those spells should have expanded over time.
This is exactly why I posted my own concept for a Paladin rework a week or so ago. Something needs to be done, and if they insist we keep some systems that we’ve had for years, then I’ve buffed them and made them work well together, right down to Forbearance.
I’m not saying current Paladins are absolutely unplayable. I’m saying we’re a bunch of glowing bits, Rogue combo points and occasional wings, haphazardly taped together and stamped “approved for competitive gameplay” (ugh, I won’t get started).
If Blizzard ever asks for direct feedback for a rework of our class, I’ll be first in line with some class identity and dope RP paladin abilities and spells. I’ll reference specific RPG books if necessary!
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Number tuning wasn’t the answer of what I was suggesting.
Typically rets in pvp favor the more support style role without doing that much damage outside of set ups (while having decent sustain) whereas pve rets would like more raid style/mythic + style utility (our current utility is drastically favored towards pvp, from my understanding our utility is mostly useless in pve, but it is VERY good in pvp).
We would like this in pvp ?
I’m not sure you understand the point.
I don’t think it’s poorly designed persay. I think for SL classes ret is one of the better designed ones, but ya in a vacuum I suppose it is .
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A good ret will track his stacks and set up burst around it
I would enjoy RET soo much if it was basically it’s WoTLK (in ICC Tier) variation. Cleaving with Seal was nice, DS was ST and AoE which just felt good, and pvp (minus wings being able to be spell stolen) overall felt good. Was it perfect? sure it wasn’t, but that was the most fun I’ve had on my pally in PvP and PvE.
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No. All reworks do is create generation divides between what people view as the best iteration of the Paladin and it keeps them from making suggestion to make the Paladin class move forward with the current implementation.
We should be focusing on refactoring and reiterating on our DF talent trees, pushing for new talents and more abilities baseline to make room for new toys within the scope of the current implementation of the Paladin spec you identify with.
u can currently log on the wrath PTR and play old ret and it is more enjoyable than retail even without the icc tier set. and that’s pretty embarrassing.
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They wouldn’t want it in pvp. That’s the point - but it doesn’t hurt in PVE.
They didn’t seem to want it in pve either
Yeah, your post was well done and i found some really interesting ideas with it.
Its part of what prompted me to make this open post to the paladin community on the current iteration of the class 
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The main problem we have that pigeonholes us into being fire mages is the 20% crit chance on AW. Now I think crusade is better so in pve that will be good but in pvp AWMight will be the best choice and will continue to target nerfs at us.
Will you enjoy (as a pve guy that goes into pvp) picking multiple talents that are nerfed to ghe ground in pvp? Divine purpuse, righteous verdict, healing hands, templars vindication, SoV, FR… and the most important: AW is only 15% not 20%.
Yay I cant wait to go into DF with half the tree performing diferently in pvp. Makes spending points very painful.
I personally hate Crusade with a passion, and I very much hope the tuning is such that it’s a genuine choice, and not “You take Crusade unless your uptime will be less than X seconds”.
I appreciate that! It’s bumming me out that we’ve not heard much of anything lately, but I’m not willing to give up just yet. The Paladin team may be preparing to surprise us all with some stuff. I just really hope that they’ve seen the suggestion and request threads that have been posted since the Paladin Trees were first presented.