Outlaw upcoming tuning

Classes Rogue
1

Hi, im zac I do high keys every season with a phys comp, forcing them to endure my spec.

https://raider.io/characters/eu/draenor/Tomelvis

Outlaw got a significant buff going into 12.0.5, turns out it appear the buffs were needed and justified since even after these buffs we were still just a “good” spec for raid, and maybe top 8/9? Dps spec in keys.

Outlaw is the least played spec in the game at any level, be it normal level keys or high keys.

https://imgur.com/a/YLUXrXi

Currently outlaw is doing similar damage to the other 2 rogue specs, is basically unplayable in non phys comp group with all raid buffs and does not top damage in any keys. Here is an imgur album with a compiled list of overalls of our last push keys at 21 level:

https://imgur.com/a/IMaDiza

As you can see outlaw isn’t ever topping in this comp that is entirely tailored around the spec, bringing all raid buffs (worth about 17% dps) and doing routes with smaller packs to accommodate for its target cap, outlaw ends up being either 2nd or last dps. (I want to add that outlaw does not provide a meaningful raid buff compared to say the 5% from war or 3% vers from the feral, does not have a single groupe utility, and after tww to midnight nerfs is basically one of the squishiest spec in the game in current keys design, it basically is only here to bring damage and vibes)

Yet on reset it will get nerfed by the same amount or more than the current meta specs unholy dk, aug, and devoureur, arms will even get buffed, warlock untouched.

Here is a single target and an aoe sim:

ST:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pyj6pgipn6D9jN6ASCAQYq AOE:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qxteNUcLvHEgxAkfpVNzPv

Outlaw will get nerfed by around 6% in single target which is quite a significant number, and 3/4% in aoe. (The aura buffs are way too low to compensate the trickster nerfs, were they even intended to compensate it?)

Now for comparaison, devoureur get a 5% st and aoe nerf, dk gets a 1.6% st nerf and a 8% aoe nerf and aug is getting a 2% nerf (lol).

I’m wondering how it ever make sense to nerf a somewhat mid spec, that has the lowest popularity in keys by a huge margin, that is basically unplayed in raid aswell, by more, or equivalent to the top meta specs. The same thing happened all of the war within when outlaw was basically one of the worse spec in the game in keys every season until in season 2 a wowhead article basically forced blizzard hands into hotfixing a bunch of outlaw bugs which finally made the spec strong (by accident) which was promptly reverted going into s3.

224 Likes
2

@Blizzard - The post above is well said. The nerf is not supported by gameplay or analytics.

Zero logs after 12.0.5 cloud cover change that reflect Outlaw ST, AOE, Cleave, or Burst metrics as Top 5 DPS across any boss or dungeon on any difficulty. It was not enough to even move us into a meta rotation.

The rogue community might be rather small but many of us are long time Outlaws players. Please consider our comments.

61 Likes
3

Even running the perfect comp, outlaw’s still only mid compared to other specs. Just because in some parses outlaw tops the meters that’s not because it’s the best, it’s because others were just not being played as well as they could. It’s already hurt by its usual lack of burst and hard target cap.

43 Likes
4

The unspoken words here are “we’d rather you not play outlaw”. The 12.0.5 patch made outlaw less miserable in terms of damage and BTE procs but it still has points where you have no energy like it’s 2004-2006.

I’m just tired of being the spec with moments in an M+ or arena where you just don’t have energy.

33 Likes
5

I don’t have much to contribute other than support. Some communication from people actually making decisions on the class/spec would be great as opposed to continued radio silence.

36 Likes
6

Yes. This is an unnecessary nerf and it is frustrating to play Outlaw with vibe coded tunings.

Some feedback and clarity would be good. I am starting to doubt that Blizzard even plays their own game.

36 Likes
7

There’s nothing left to say, Zac already said what ALL of us Outlaw mains think of this trash tuning. It’s like Blizz don’t have ANY data on their game or anyone who understands how it’s played.

32 Likes
8

Adding a +1 to all of this.

I’m an Outlaw player from the CN servers, and I’ve masochistically pushed for the 0.1% M+ title for the last three TWW seasons (lol). The data already proves that nerfing Outlaw in PvE right now completely lacks justification.

Even after the recent “simplifications” in Midnight, Outlaw remains one of the most complex, reaction-heavy specs in the game, where the punishment for a single rotational mistake is absolutely massive. Many of us spend countless sleepless nights analyzing logs and fine-tuning our rotations just so we can execute dozens of split-second, micro-decisions correctly in a single pull. And for what? We bring near-zero utility and are forced to rely entirely on a tailored physical comp just to do our one job (damage). Yet somehow, the spec is getting hit with heavier nerfs than the actual meta specs.

Furthermore, if you look at the latest Raidbots sims, Fatebound is already infinitely close to—if not completely replacing—Trickster. You designed a fresh, exciting playstyle in 12.0.5, only to nerf it into unplayability within a single week. And this is happening while the spec’s damage isn’t even remotely close to meta specs like Unholy/Devourer/Aug.

This is a glaring oversight, and I sincerely hope the development team corrects it. You shouldn’t treat a spec as an easy target for heavy-handed, arbitrary nerfs just because it has a small player base. Treating Outlaw as an afterthought will only drive the few dedicated players away and leave the spec completely dead.

44 Likes
9

It really feels like Blizzard just doesn’t want us to play outlaw. It’s been my favorite spec for years, and it just feels like we are punished whenever we start to be average. Going through all the practice to fine tune my damage, just to do below average dps. At this point, I’m seriously considering just quitting the game. It’s exhausting.

29 Likes
10

Wish I could tag someone that will actually read this and make a difference, but who knows!

12.0.5 Cloud Trickster change made us competitive, nothing more. The nerf is not needed and to be honest feels kneejerk and without merit.

30 Likes
11

Bump.

Feels like Blizzard has hated all three rogue specs for like the last three expacs.

26 Likes
12

Super fun spec to play. Too bad no one will ever try it because it’s bottom of the barrel

23 Likes
13

Adding to this post because clearly Blizzard needs to revert the nerfs, or at least provide some blue post context to explain this decision. It’s unreal they have done it for DKs a few times already with nerfs and buffs, and now nerfs to unholy DK again. Whoever manages these project leads who adjust class/spec performance based on adjustments needs to be involved. The community wants more community on the “why”s, Blizzard has said they would be more open with the community, yet this decision on Outlaw rogue is clearly out of unwarranted left field.

@IonHazzikostas @warcraftdevs @anyonewhocanengagewiththecommunityhere @bluepost

22 Likes
14

The funny part is that Outlaw actually got MORE complicated. yes we lost Ghostly Strike (good), but now Killing Spree is mandatory (neutral), Keep it Rolling is mandatory (bad), and we got Prep (bad), AND we now need to play around the smoke bomb radius, which means even more cognitive load on when to drop AR.

Seriously Blizzard, if you don’t want the spec to be playable just get rid of it, it’s not helping anyone to keep it limping around useless like this. Better yet, change it to a mid-range pistol based spec like Devourer/Devoker, change Sub to pure shadow damage, and add a 4th spec for a tank role. Then Rogue might actually be useful again.

16 Likes
15

its just so upsetting to see this spec nerfed because of design failure

cloudcover a very controversial ability on inception due to its animation covering mechanics and its damage uptime being based around your tank keeping things there, caused the spec overal to get a nerf due to how strong it was.

this is just the most recent design failure the spec has gotten this expansion btw, this is not counting all the other things outlaw is forced to stomach

22 Likes
17

Here to add support and hopefully increase visibility on this post, zac has hit the nail on the head. By any metric you look at outlaw, it is completely middling, and this is after the large buff outlaw (maybe unintentionally?) received in 12.0.5. As others have said, while trickster increased the complexity of outlaw by adding a button and some frustrations with combo points/energy, it at least increased outlaw to a competitive state, but nothing more.

I would hope that this nerf is unintentional, but it’s baffling that sub got a larger aura buff than outlaw after nerfing cloud cover, when cloud cover was MUCH more impactful for outlaw than it was for sub due to its uptime from adrenaline rush.

No matter how I look at it from any metric, be it high level keys run, damage overalls in both raid and mythic+, or even spec popularity, this tuning makes absolutely no sense, and I sincerely hope this is a mistake and was meant to at least be damage neutral.

24 Likes
18

+1, stop hamstringing phys groups in favor of caster/dk status quo, I rarely see rogues in queues.

15 Likes
19

Blizzard not knowing what to do with 3rd rogue spec? A Tale as old as Time.

14 Likes
20

“ Blizzard not knowing what to do with 3 rogue specs” there fixed that for you

15 Likes
21

I mean yeah but comically its about outlaw. they couldn’t figure out what to do with combat rogue and it died for this. the other 2 are at least semi solidified in their themes. but I still agree. rogue is a roller coaster ride for this company with making curious decisions.

:laughing:

11 Likes