I’m not talking about swapping a couple points here or there for utility. Rogue has always been this way. The only real “build diversity” rogues need is a choice between the 3 specs.
That is the plight of pure dps classes, which is why you can’t compare us to shamans or druids or other classes with multiple roles.
Mages have multiple builds as do Warlocks. Pure DPS means nothing anymore.
Rogues were known as having the best build diversity and in fact many famous hybrid builds back in the day.
The modern game neglects Rogues while other pure and hybrid DPS enjoy build diversity.
Alright, well I guess we’re doing this then… Just looking at DPS specs and not taking utility into account on these classes I’ve already provided:
Elemental Stormbringer shaman: Full lightning dip, storm ele, and Thunderstrike ward for massive chain lightnings AND really good single target. Or the full fire dip with Fire ele and Magma totem OR even hyrbids between these that are all functional and within normal damage variances to take without being a hinderance.
Frost DK: Oblit, Breath, and Shattering Frost have viable build paths with variance in their damage profiles and talent dips, and both hero trees are viable period in all instances.
Unholy DK: Good lord, take your pick. Do you want pets? Diseases? Both? What about both trees being absolutely usable for all cases in all content? Wild right?
Fire mage: Less flexible as Frostfire is a bad hero tree, but Sunfury has builds ranging from everything from Flamestrike focus to Fire blast ignite cleave, to using either sun kings or Unleashed inferno, and also being able to opt in/out of a ton of AOE options for cleave fights that drastically change their damage profile.
Do I seriously need to continue with this?
Outlaw has literally one talent you can move without killing off 20% of your damage. Dancing steel can be dropped for either Swift Slasher (if the fight lets you even stick to the target long enough to care) or Thief’s Vers for the free 3% damage.
And you can only do this in raid. On low target fights.
Like, we functionally can’t even take Precise Cuts anymore to help level out our dungeon damage, things are so absolutely poorly pathed right now. You can not tell me there’s even utility dips we can take with that.
Outlaw is so bad right now. Totally called it man since the past few weeks. Totally true everyone’s seen it coming
Oh, I didn’t know I needed to play a rogue to look at the very clear Warcraft Logs stats … What a ridiculous thing to say. Obviously you didn’t look yourself or you would not be saying such ridiculous things. The truth is the truth, it’s not going to change, so go look at it yourself and stop trying to marginalize me just because you don’t like what I said.
Combat is getting nerfed because it out peformed nearly every other DPS accept Fury, which is also getting nerfed. It’s obvious when you take 5 min to look at the logs.
the tier set was sub 1% overal gain and youd wanted regular gear with better stats over it. this was not okay and warrented
it was never a real thing, you either played casually and did hybrid builds or whatever, or you pushed and had to play actual builds or be inting your group
You’re looking at it at face value of “numbers go brrr”. It matters. Specs that do well in Heroic that don’t have damage profiles that are beneficial to fight rhythms end up dumped.
Outlaw had one of the smallest benefits from tier. Do you know what that means? Everyone will catch up as they get it.
So yes to a degree you need to know what you’re talking about to opine.
It’s almost like every thread you show up in people aren’t complaining about the damage and are talking about wanting improvements to how it plays.
I’m new to this class and Outlaw. Started it just before the expansion launched. It’s been tougher than Dragonflight, but then I read they upped the damage and HP of the enemies a few days into the expansion so I guess that explains that. Now I read here that they are going to nerf Outlaw damage. It almost makes me want to shelve this one. I’m trying to level him as much as I can before Tuesday.
Seriously, what logs…? It’s upper mid. Not second at all.
If you’re looking at heroic bosses; the only data that even showed they were second, (and still not even near fury) there was even a disclaimer on wowhead stating there wasn’t enough data in this area yet to draw an accurate estimation of performance.
Not going to sit here and argue to convince you. Blizzard is nerfing Combat for a reason. Every class that was over performing on the logs got nerfed, every single one of them. So I’m not the person who’s having a problem looking at the logs, that would be you. It’s not rocket science man, it was really simple.
What’s comical is, it doesn’t matter what percentile you even use. Combat is #1 or #2 on every single one of them.
You do know that Blizzard has their own sims right? So not only do we have actual raid logs now, but Blizzard has their own sims. Blizzard is making corrections so they are seeing what I am seeing, and like I said, every class that was over performing in the logs got nerfed and every under performer got buffed.
But I’m sure if you repeat the lie enough that the logs are showing, “It’s upper mid. Not second at all”, that someone will believe you.
That is correct, that is why they nerfed their skills damage and buffed the set bonus, still it’s a pretty sad buff to Tier set 4.3%, but some other classes got a lot worse, like SV hunter, theirs is terrible 1.7%. It’s not going to feel good to get your gear and your damage hardly changes, perhaps the want to keep the scaling better under control. But that’s what they are doing by they time it’s all said and done. Correct, Combat will no longer be 2nd. I don’t think the updated spread sheets are out yet, but Combat should still be in the top 5 or 6 which is not bad.
seems like that’s exactly what you’re trying to do.
https://static.icy-veins.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/2024-09-12-18_26_11-DPS-Damage-To-Bosses-Statistics-Normal-Nerub-ar-Palace-_-Warcraft-Logs-%E2%80%94-Mozil.jpg
Show me on this chart where outlaw is #2.
May as well have a room full of chimpanzees and propeller hats have their own sims. Blizzard are usually still incompetent in the way they address said information.
" Overall Damage All Percentiles
Heroic is a little tricky without Ansurek and with a whole lot less data to work with."
So, the heroic data is currently advisory but we’re taking it at face value. Got it.
You may want to look at that other thread about high effort low reward. very very accurate. Also there’s something something about…not everyone raids mythic so your point is spot on! Outlaw not ideal for mythic encounters totally applies to everyone
Sorry give me a refresher what is wrong with any rogue spec being In the top 5 when it comes to parses we literally only bring damage to the table. Mage hunter warlock rogue all they do is deal damage. 3 of them are ranged dps, 2 of them bring a hero, 2 specs are melee, 1 brings a battle Rez. 1 brings a buff , 1 brings cookies and a gate and a summon. I have no issue as a rogue if any of these classes are crushing me in damage that’s what they are supposed to do but I got a problem when I bring nothing but damage to a fight and I’m doing less than classes that can tank heal and bring actual raid utility. Leave the stuns kick and blind out of it as every class is getting that now . Atrophic and numbing poison is negligible .
My 570 blood dk with questing greens is soloing lvl 8 delves my rogues is on the brink of death with 2 mobs on me. You can’t tell me that when other classes are able to solo content that outlaw needs a nerf. And that hybrid classes should be getting buffs.
You will never move me from that position. If anything we should be top 2 dps (with proper play) seeing as that’s all we bring to the table and we are melee that suffers harder from downtime that other ranged specs
it is pretty clear that no one at Blizz is actually playing the rogue specs.
these nerfs are totally spreadsheet data.
why? I have yet to say “wow, that died so quickly! this is easy mode!” instead it is the exact opposite. tier 6 delves, much less tier 8, are full of mobs that take 20-30secs to die. I press a 7* + ghost strike buffed “Between the Eyes” and nothing dies. Hardly a Huge hitting cooldown. it hits like revenge on prot warrior except that ability cleaves.
outlaw is also losing echoing reprimand which is a 200K burst and replacing it with something far less.
they should just take away grapple and give it to Frost DKs and give stealth to Ret Pallys. those teams are making classes fun that they enjoy playing.
not one streamer thought Rogue was A/S tier. not one. Zuco has them as “Needs Jesus” while the others have it in the C/D tier. why would they make a bad class worse? what is the purpose? what is the design idea? what are they trying to achieve? nothing we can see. thus its a spreadsheet alignment nerf.
This is exactly what people predicted would happen when blizzard decided to keep giving rogues across the board damage buffs right before the expansion released instead of fixing bugs and giving us real hero talents. The worst part is that blizzard doesn’t take any feedback at all.
It’s just the start of expansion panic nerf that Outlaw always gets because it always thrives in low stat scenarios. People see the sim number and scream overpowered but people don’t understand that number isn’t real because Outlaws apl isn’t setup that way lol.
We were super front loaded with the tier set being literally useless and if they made no changes to the spec whatsoever it would have already fell off to middle of the pack naturally as soon as people started getting gear. The rest of the expansion is just going to follow the same suite as usual because of Blizzards panic nerfs when nearly every other spec in the game will continue to scale meanwhile our mastery is still dead and our artificial haste requirement isn’t real scaling either because it’s just that… a requirement and once it’s met haste becomes a dead stat.
The Rogue devs are actually worthless. I’m done with the game because of this.
This is very true and happened to Monk.
However, the mini-Monk rework this expansion has revitalized my hope that there’s class designers out there who at least took notes and made changes where needed.
I’m hopeful Outlaw gets the same love.
(Diablo 4 Class Designers!!)
(GO HOME!!!)
e.g. fire mage? a dot spec?