Opposite War of Thorns

Imagine the war of thorns had happened in the opposite way. The Alliance had marched on and destroyed the Undercity, and, in retaliation, the Horde marched on Teldrassil. They attempted to occupy the tree, but it was ultimately destroyed by Tyrande, to deny the Horde a strategic foothold. Several Forsaken died in the first attack, but most Kaldorei were evacuated. Would this have set the stage for a more interesting Battle for Azeroth, and why? Discuss!

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I legitimately had this exact scenario typed out in a hasty Discord message to a friend.

I think it would’ve made it not only refreshing, but a lot more impactful than the blanket tale we got. I’ll slot in my hectic messages below because I can’t be bothered right now to fully explain them (and I think the general point gets across anyway):

genn set fire to the undercity, leaving the horde with no ground in eastern kingdoms. anduin is pissed because genn did it behind his back/without orders. the forsaken are instead given a chance to be humanized/victims.

tyrande, realizing sylvanas wants teldrassil as a port/resources/horde control, sets it ablaze by her own hand - of course evacuating everyone and everything
the night elves overtake darkshore. tyrande evokes the black moon. the night elves begin getting more and more aggressive. genn agrees. anduin is at a crossroads.

meanwhile sylvanas is pulling the strings of the horde still, while using the homeless forsaken as a cover-up. but she’s notably… off towards her people. she has greater goals in mind.

or, perhaps, she EXPRESSES guilt and regret and shame about losing lordaeron, both as a military standpoint and for her people
but we get the big reveal during saurfang’s death that it meant nothing
as opposed to what we got/expected
even better if tyrande evoked the black moon and THEN set teldrassil ablaze

and we could’ve instead gotten a tyrande warbringers cinematic
but keep sylv’s just for a later point
it’d make baine’s imprisonment more shocking, even
with sylvanas trying to sway everyone like “the alliance destroyed OUR city… and will not STOP… and yet baine works with them?”
more reverse psychology versus blatant “ur going against mi plans!!”

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BfA would have been a loooooooot quicker had your scenario happened.

  • I would have marched on Undercity to destroy it.
  • Tyrande would be executed for destroying Teldrassil.
  • Malfurion would likely need to be killed as well.

I see this as an absolute win.

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:fearful:

ten chars

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Ooof, this is a dramatic alteration to the context of everything and would need me to be more awake to write it out. Gimme like, 10 hours to snooze and I can cook a scenario up for how Alliance aggression utterly sends it all down the rabbit hole that results in the destruction of the Kul Tiran Fleet in a battle, Horde eviction from Ashenvale and a Miracle victory in the Plaguelands.

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There could be a confused character who honestly thought things DID happen this way.

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It would have made it a lot more interesting. If this situation happened we would see a more united Horde and Saurfang and his followers would really have no reason to turn on Sylvanas.

To get it out of the way, the Champions of Azeroth story will have to be drastically overhauled. The Horde and Alliance will both be taken the threat seriously but will disagree as to how to handle it which will facilitate further conflict. Honestly, I’d have the Heart of Azeroth have a talent tree to reflect your choices. But that’s outside the scope of this thread.

During the Battle for Lordaeron, Saurfang is captured. This time without the guilt he had in our timeline. It is during this time in captivity that he gets to talk with Talanji and Zul. When the Horde breaks into Stormwind they rescue Saurfang too. Because Saurfang is in play, he will be the face of the Honorbound and basically take Nathanos’s place.

I think that lots of things change from here necessarily. Especially if raids are changed.

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I know having the Alliance as first aggressors would be a good change of pace.

I’m assuming the Alliance reasoning for going after Undercity first is along the same lines as why Sylvanas claimed to be going for Teldressil; a united continent (minus Quel’Thalas). There also the intent of driving a wedge in the Horde leadership the same way Sylvanas hoped to wedge the Alliance leadership.

So now we have the events play out. Most of BfA happens the same, but this time around, I suspect that instead of having the MoP 2.0 Hordeside, there’s a loyalist v. separatist option on the Alliance side. The remnants of the Defias come back to spearhead the separatist movement, as without either VanCleef they just kind of float around and adds more grievances to those who feel slighted by the blue warchief of the Alliance and his aggressive policies. Surprisingly, the Alliance get a little more than “Hey, do this mission like you’re with them, but you aren’t with them” because its not a rushed storyline to placate players who want more choice.

Events leading up to Uldir remain the same. Many of the areas where the questing seemed dumb (such as Brennandam) are given new light, as its not just the Horde invading to invade, but the Horde seeking to try and cut off the Kul Tirans from their shipwrights to prevent an out and out attack against Kalimdor. Many of the other complaints are addressed, such as the Vindicaar being too weak to contribute to conflict (a constant point of irritation to Anduin, but Velen and Turalyon stick to their guns), and the two war campaigns are given ways to tie in better, so that the Horde IS aware Sylvanas has trusted the San’layn, and so on.

Battle of Stromgarde and Darkshore take place as normal, but there’s no night warrior ritual.

We also get a battle for Quel’Thalas and a Battle of Mulgore Gate. The Quel’Thalas battle comes after Stromgarde but before Darkshore, as the Alliance seeks to try and unite the Eastern Kingdoms. Darkshore happens (again minus the night warrior ritual; Elune can’t be dumb enough to grant you vengeance if you’re the reason the vengeance is needed. I’m going with Tyrande blowing up the tree to deny the Horde a place to occupy). While Darkshore is happening, the Alliance sails up into Theramore and charges through the swamp to attack the Gate, trying to keep the tauren occupied.

Battle of Dazar’alor becomes Battle of Boralus as the Horde, trying to keep itself safe and drive between the Alliance their possible allies, the Kul Tirans, end up assassinating…maybe not one of the Proudmores, but tbh I can’t think of who would have that same impact as Rastakahn. The Jaina fight is replaced with a Talanji fight, and the patch ends with the same uncertainty.

The resurrected Proudmoore campaign happens, but looking for a quick end the Horde leaders are more inclined to go along with it. Baine does disagree until his homeland is attacked.

What about old boy Saurfang? We skip the entirety of his dumb plot and have him die defending the Undercity. “Avenge Saurfang!” becomes the war cry of the Horde as they march to strike Teldressil.

For the Alliance plot I mentioned before, lines split amongst the loyalists of Anduin, Genn, Tyrande, and the void elves while those opposed include the dwarves, gnomes, all draenei, pandaren, and whoever else I didn’t put over here (idk man I’m making this up as I go along).

Eventually, Anduin has his moment to shine (literally) as its revealed he’s been in touch with the Light Mother of AU Draenor, and instead of Shadowlands we get Lightlands or something.

IDK, I thought this was okay, and so did my sponser, RAID SHADOW LEG-

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(Alrighty. So, bare in mind, I’m working on the basis of we’re going to SL anyway and Sylvanas is the main party driving it)

The start of the War of Thorns is rapid, sudden and succeeds in doing exactly as it intended. The Horde and Forsaken are driven back into the Undercity in short order. For the most part, the battle plays out exactly as it does in the game. Unlike the game, however, there is no Saurfang denouncing actions as dishonorable to the degree he up and leaves. No, there is an Alliance attack, he cant afford to do that. Unlike our timeline, however, when Saurfang retreats with the Horde and Sylvanas -and- Nathanos stay behind to confront the Alliance leaders, they don’t seem to escape with the Blight Explosion. While the Alliance leaders escape, it seems like Sylvanas and Nathanos died buying them time.

This leads us to Kalimdor. As far as anyone sees, Sylvanas died a hero, ensuring more of the Horde survived, and the Alliance attack must be answered. The Horde marches in Teldrassil, making rapid headway as they do in our Timeline, led by Saurfang, Baine and Rokhan. The Battle for Teldrassil does happen as it does in our timeline, but Tyrande, after most are evacuated, makes a shocking declaration to scorched earth policy and burn Teldrassil down, reducing her people to having no home and killing the portions of the Horde army who do not escape in time.

After it all, the Horde, now without a Warchief, is gathered and deciding what to do. They are on the backfoot and need something big to help save them. Luckily, intelligence has pulled off a coup! Lor’themar explains that the Alliance recently imprisoned the heir to the Zandalari Empire. Freeing her would undoubtedly give the Horde favor from a powerful figure and bring in a powerful nation that could help turn the tide of war. As such, the scenario plays out roughly the same with the Horde saving Talanji, albiet instead of Nathanos, it is Lor’themar providing the exit and help. As with the Alliance, they in turn rush to Kul Tiras in response after the Zandalari stomp their navy. Storylines for the 3 zones on each Continent play out roughly the same.

Back on the Eastern Kingdoms, the Resurgent Stromgarde is looking to expand it’s influence as far as possible and remove the 1 remaining threat on the Continent, the Blood Elves. As such, they begin amassing their forces. Void Elves, Humans, Worgen (some of them), Dwarves and anyone else from the Alliance who can be spared. In an effort to further bolster it, Stromgarde pardons the remnants of the Scarlet Crusade and even let them set up shop in the city, though this isn’t a popular move and raises a lot of eyebrows.

Seeing the impending danger, Lor’themar presses the Kalimdor Horde for reinforcements, but is turned down by Saurfang who claims the Horde has it’s hands full there as a desperate Nigh Elf race, now on death ground, is pushing through Ashenvale, having no choice but to fight since they have no where else to go. As such, the first Warfront erupts in Ashenvale and is built akin to the Arathi one. Maeiv, Genn and (insert draenei here) are Alliance commanders while Rokhan, Gey’rah and Lasan are Horde commanders.

In the Eastern Kingdoms, the Alliance begin their march on Quel’thalas, sweeing straight through Hillsbrad and through Alterac. What remains of the Frostwolves (will be important) are shattered and sent fleeing North. As the Alliance pushes into the Western Plaguelands, however, they finally begin facing proper resistance. The offensive is slowed as Farstriders and what remains of the Forsaken begin harassing their flanks and inflicting major casualties.

After weeks of Skirmishing, this comes to a head as Falstad speaks with the surviving member of a force sent to end the Frostwolves who is reporting a ‘development’. The earth itself had suddenly swallowed their siege weapons. Fire erupted randomly and turned the soldiers to ash as the remaining fled and the last thing he say was the silhoutte of an orc who looked a lot like Thrall looming over him with glowing, angry eyes. (This is Thrall’s outlet for returning. Instead of Terror of Darkshore though, It’s Terror of Plaguelands). Horde side, Lor’themar is utterly shocked to see Thrall back and helping. Thrall, to his credit, explains that he originally did not wish to come back, but a visit from Saurfang and ill fated attack by Alliance assassins convinced him that he wasn’t going to be sitting this one out. With a new compliment of Horde Shamans at their side, the Alliance coalition now contends with the Sindorei, Shaldorei, Forsaken and Thrall. They still have numbers by a large margin, surely they will break this meager force.

Back at sea, the conflict is beginning to show where the next decisive battle will take place… Dazar’alor. Even though Horde forces harrass Kul Tiras, all signs point to an impending major Alliance attack. During a meeting of the leaders, a shocking idea is suggested. Leak some credible, but fake, information to the Alliance. Claim a larger portion than true of the Zandalari fleet was destroyed in the civil war and hasten an Alliance attack on the city. When they come, however, bring the fleet around and catch the Kul Tiran fleet out of position and in a killed field. Seeing the walls closing in around them, King Rastakhan agrees. A quiet evacuation of Dazar’alor follows, and reports show the Alliance is moving to attack.

For the Alliance, they mislead a portion of the Horde army into Nazmir before attacking. The Kul Tiran fleet moves into attack the Zandalari ships at port at the same time as the ground forces attack the city. Unfortunately, their ground forces meet the returning horde Army and the plans rapidly devolve as the Alliance find the Rastakhan isn’t in the city. (insert first phase with 3 bosses).

As the battle hits full swing, Jaina hears one of her look outs shout there is an issue. Turning to look, she and the Alliance see the issue… that part of the Golden Fleet which was supposedly destroyed in the civil war is plowing the waters right towards them on two different sides, and they are in a horrible position to fight this. At the same time, Horde forces push into and reclaim the Harbor, badly wounding Wyrmbane and Gelbin as they do before attacking Jaina herself. (Gelbin still wrecks Gallywix. Some things are just fate)

With the battle now firmly going against the Alliance, a general retreat is sounded, and the Alliance forces are forced to break out to the their point of entry at Xibala with the remaining Kul Tiran ships. In the retreat, the Alliance has to fight through a pair of Horde delays and, finally, Saurfang on the Horde Flagship. The fight is hard, but the Alliance eventually escape and mortally wound Saurfang.

With the battle over, both sides have bled heavily, but the Horde has come out the clear victor. The Kul Tiran fleet is in shambles and while wounded, the Zandalari fleet is dominant. The attack and Saurfang’s heroic sacrifice have now pushed the Zandalari to throwing their lot in entirely with the Horde, making the situation worse. The bad news only continues piling up. In Kalimdor, the offensive has stopped at the Barrens and Azshara. In the Plaguelands, the Horde is outright winning as Liadrin, Lor’themar and Thrall have spearheaded an attack on the Alliance forces, knocking them off balance and gradually forcing them back.

As for the rest of the expansion, it plays out roughly similar, but Zandalari fleet being ]maimed at Nazjatar instead and a reveal Sylvanas is in fact alive and pulling strings outside of both factions. N’zoth is freed, yada yada yada.

The end results? Alliance wins the Ashenvale War Front while the Horde wins the Plaguelands (a major upset victory) and the Battle of Dazar’alor. Stromgarde is re-estblished going forward, Night Warriors are still a thing, but now more menacing since nelf Genocide didn’t happen.

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Loh this is so much better than the expansion itself wtf

And most importantly Rastakhan makes it out alive.

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I debated on having him be the final boss of the Dazar’alor Raid, but opted against it since I was still moving from Point A to Point B with Shadowlands set up and Thrall as orc leader.

That said, I’d probably also have it be a storyline where Rastakhan has a peaceful death since sometimes people just pass away in their sleep.

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Alright, this sounds like an amazing start for a Forsaken that got hit with a shovel too hard.

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there’s no way tyrande would blaze their own tree they should evacuate people but as teldrassil is a whole zone she wouldn’t dare to burn those animals/trens alive; at the end the alliance destroys undercity and the horde destroys the tree

I feel like this is actually a very popular opinion, and I’m still baffled that Blizzard was tone deaf enough to not do it.
But I guess they really wanted to “trick” the players and have Sylvanas be a villain.

I think people in this thread are sleeping on the fact that at the end of Legion, Turalyon returned, who is (1) a fanatically devout paladin, (2) from Lordaeron, and (3) not particularly known for his fondness of the Horde, to put it mildly.

He returns to Azeroth after a thousand years of constant war to protect it, only to find his homeland destroyed and its ruins occupied not only by undead monstrosities (or at least monstrosities from his point of view as a paladin), but undead monstrosities that have allied with the Horde.

In the face of this, it doesn’t really make sense that he would simply accept Anduin’s milquetoast peace policy—he should’ve immediately rallied the anti-Horde elements of the Alliance and used his legendary reputation to call for a crusade against the Forsaken to retake Lordaeron.

Oh I didn’t sleep on it. I was purposely not giving it much attention since Turalyon is an old crusty character and I’d frankly rather give other characters some well deserved spotlight.

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I think a big part of Turaylon’s re-introduction was showing him getting deprogrammed from X’era and learning to question blind faith in the Light. Now he’s often the one warning Anduin not to automatically trust the Light.

The rest of it, I agree with.

And really, this was a pretty bad time to try to reintroduce Turalyon to the modern setting of Warcraft:

Random Azerothian: “See, Turalyon! Times have really changed! The orcs are good guys now!”
Turalyon: “Really? Intriguing concept, if true.”
RA: “See!” pulls back curtain to reveal… a Burning Teldrassil with cheering Horde on the shore
Turalyon: “Uh-huh, I see…”
RA: “Uh, well, I swear they were great neighbors helping us beat up demons just last week! And the undead aren’t all soulless monsters!”
camera cuts to Leonid Barthalamew waving at the camera, only for him to get hip-checked out of the frame by Sylvanas and Nathanos engrossed in a puppy-speed-eating competition
Turalyon: “…I see…”
Playerbase: “Blizz, seriously?”

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while i dont really care to recreate the entire story of the expansion like some of my more talented peers do, i do think the alliance attacking first does open up an interesting space where the old concept of the cycle of hatred and how it plays into the final battle for azeroth, instead of the way it is now where the horde starts world wars on a whim.

with that in mind, one thing id have happen is during the battle for undercity, horde players have to track darius crowley through the city as he massacres his way through the forsaken special forces, eventually cornering him in the royal quarter, not far from sylvanas’ throne, injured and kneeling but surrounded by the eviscerated corpses of several deathstalkers and dark rangers.

(this also helps tone down the forsaken and make them more human by making them mortal instead of invincible gods of war as they are now.)

as he bleeds from his mouth and sylvanas knocks an arrow to end his life, surrounded by her, nathan, saurfang, baine and the player, saurfang asks why the alliance is attacking lordaeron.

in a deliberate callback to genn in stormheim, darius replies:

“You took Gilneas’ future. And now, we’ve taken yours.”

at that moment, the whole of the undercity begins to shake as the azerite empowered alliance war machines have begun shelling the castle walls, arriving much faster than the horde had anticipated. as the horde leaders turn back to darius, he’s already dead.

doing so deliberately places the cycle of hatred at the forefront of the story, and while the alliance might be starting the war, its far from unjustified, as well as acting as a reminder that garrosh, gilneas, theramore and more were not so long ago as to assume the horde had been forgiven.

I think BFA in General wouldn’t even exist. I mean the Faction War has become very pointless and not really interesting anymore after Mists of Pandaria.