Once again, punishes casual players!

We never had this issue pre-Legion


Yeah screw the end game raid gear /s

Covenant gear is fine where it’s at you don’t need mythic quality gear to do solo content


How is allowing players to get that gear through a slower, different process somehow undermining the achievement of having that gear?

If it takes me 3 weeks to get a piece of gear that takes raiders 1 week, I still have a pathway but I understand the compromise. Why is that a bad thing? Genuine concern.


Hrm, so if the 197 complement of gear was enough to “stomp” WQs, do you think the WQ-only section of “casuals” would be satisfied? Or would they feel the need to still want more and more power, equal eventually to mythic raiders?

I suppose I just don’t really see where it would end.

Like, I consider myself casual. For me, 220 gear is more than enough for what I want to do. I get that from the vault, slowly but surely (have had good luck so far, no dupes). I measure what I need based on what the content I want to do drops. So if M12 drops 203s, I know I probably need at least 202 average or higher to pull my weight. So my 220s are already overkill, hence, I have no desire for the Mythic Raid powered gear, you know?

I dunno, to each their own I suppose. More options are always good.


Because if raid quality gear was just simple as spending anima to upgrade, what purpose does raiding give

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IMO a LOT of things were better Pre-legion didn’t the last round of crap scaling mess up the legacy raid runners and the official response was once they get better gear they will be able to run ones like they could already do in BFA.

(Have not bothered to by SL so just what I’ve seen in several threads in the forums only came back for BC classic coming out).


OP is asking for item level 220 gear, which is entry level mythic raid item level.

Also how on earth are world quests giving people this much trouble? They have never been challenging at all, at any item level.

Everyone does have a path to get gear. It’s called doing the content.


As a casual, I’m really not. The gear that I am wearing right now, which is well below Mythic+, has allowed me and continues to allow me to easily do the stuff I normally do (Normal and Heroic dungeons, LFR, world quests, Torghast and the Maw).

I mean, yeah, I’d be cool if I could do something with Valor points beyond upgrading mythic + gear since I’m going to end up collecting a lot of it doing callings, but I’m not particularly concerned.


There’s always other games that could be played if this one doesn’t suit the fancy. That’s what I’m doing right now in my free time. Playing a zombie survival/builder where I feel like I’m progressing at something instead of just throwing myself against a wall. I recommend dropping the sub and finding something else to suit the fancy…hic!


Honestly, I would have loved to see this option open up once you clear sire on whichever difficulty. 203 for normal and 210 for heroic. Would definitely help with the whole “bad luck” that folks have.

I imagine the argument would simply be that “time taken” is not the metric used to determine reward. The outright challenge of the encounter is. When an encounter demands players use their complete skillset, their knowledge of how their class works and how enemy mechanics work, that’s harder than a quest that needs you to click on 10 items and kill a 20k hp mob that spawns.

Honestly, if they had a second, third, fourth tier of WQs that made them dangerous, I’d be all for this kind of system. A series of individual real challenges that also reward powerful gear.

It’d be like how in grad school some programs allow students to take “course work” vs “thesis route”. Course work involves a series of smaller but difficult challenges while the thesis route involves 1 major challenge. But ultimately both reward the same title and degree.



I am casual. Very Casual. Very limited playtime. But I am no way a noob. I can do Mythic+. I only need 45 min to do one. I can do 4 in a week. That’s Casual.

I could say Retail WoW is Casual friendly since Legion as you can reach end game with very limited play time. It’s accessible. With 2 to 4 hours a day and about 4 days a week, you can easily reach M+15 and AoTC. I have done it on Legion and BFA all on dungeon finder. On Legion, I got a good break and even destroyed Mythic Emerald Nightmare… all bosses all on dungeon finder with my limited play time. Though unfortunately, havent found a Nighthold Mythic group on dungeon finder. But nevertheless, it’s really doable and it’s really casual friendly. I find Legion, BFA and Shadowlands very casual friendly. It’s time gated… It means Casual has the advantage. The hardcore no life wont leave Casuals behind even if the hardcore do 24/7 on the grind as the time gate would stop them. You dont need to render excessive hours to reach its high end content. It makes Casual-with less play time player a badazz.

But Retail WoW is NOT NOOB-FRIENDLY. If you cant do easy lower Mythic+ keys, lower difficulty Raid around Normal and Heroic, you would have a very big disadvantage. You would run out of things to do and you would be bored.

Why make excuses that you cant do easy lower key Mythic+ or Normal Raid? Either you go do it… experience wipes but learn the mechanics and beat it after several attempts or dont do it and run out of things to do. Dungeons and Raids are the main game of WoW since Vanilla. It will never go away.


It appears that the Valor point system is actually not meant to gear up characters, but meant to help already geared characters fill in a spot or two that’s low.


First of all, KSM is account wide. Second, it is not hard to do on a non meta class, and around 213 ilvl. I did it, and had no issue finding groups.

If only there were unlocks at 5 and 10 in addition to the 15.


If you are doing the raid tier for gear and not the challenge, than this makes it easier for you. If you care about the raid tier, you’re doing it for the challenge.

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They are simply repeating the same mistake they made in BFA. They are relying on a dungeon difficulty not originally intended to gear players. It was meant to act like a challenge mode, nothing more, nothing less.


Then blizzard doesnt deserve the VASTLY overwhelming RMR that comes from casual players. Yea, dont even try to tell me that their RMR stream comes from mythic raiders or even heroic raiders LOL


I agree, but M+ don’t deserve raid quality gear either.


That’s for max level Valor upgrades… only need+5s for first dungeon plateau and +10s for second Plateau… that being said, not sure I’m totally on board with these requirements. It forces people to do content they may not want to do (reasons: bad experiences in certain dungeons, no particular upgrades in said dungeons, etc.) In order to upgrade gear they worked hard for.

Of course, there’s always the old-fashioned way of trusting the rng gods in dungeons, but, we all know how that usually ends up…