:O bfa makes everyone tox now

I mean you’re absolutely right but it’s also realistic to see why his reaction is understandable. Super slow game pacing is flawed because people will think this is “enough” to be doing well vs top level teams. The pacing causes more delusion than normal for first time rating achievers, which while a bit is normal it’s an extremelt unrealistic amount that sadly will lead to most quitting when they realize more needs to be done.

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i mean yeah when wod wwdk first airlifted me to ratings i didn’t deserve, i spent my share of time delusionally thinking it was fair to expect every game to be a win if we just didn’t make egregious mistakes

it’s hard to grow up :frowning:

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Your experience was more fair because it was still much faster paced than now, and what you went through is something normal that most people including myself have seen at one point or another. They’re basically experiencing that delusion 1000x more severe because of how difficult they are to kill at all times and it basically becomes “oh I pressed death strike when I took damage so I deserve to live”. Tbh it’ll suck so hard for them that it’s prolly an insta uninstall or just quitting PvP.

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They should all go play as MM hunters and make the same mistakes :D, i actually make quite a bit of mistakes and i get punished for it heavly by good players.

Watching this dh + dk do 20k dps the entire game aswell as pull in 60% of the shamans healing each lol.

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Tbh didn’t actually even watch the game Keator mentioned that they didn’t make mistakes, I just already knew it was probably stupid but after looking at it I feel like I could give an entire presentation on everything that’s going wrong on his teams end and he doesn’t realize are massive mistakes just because there’s no way to punish them for it

I don’t even want to be rude here cause he seems like a nice guy but there are so many things wrong with watching this game lol, actually just so silly how forgiving this game is

The only defensive that was actually even used “properly” the entire game was just AMZ on vendetta, everything else was REALLY bad. It’s hard to actually be in the position they’re in and not just be so mad at the game that you insult the people you’re fighting because I can absolutely see why from their perspective they see the game as a waste of time and a joke but I get that from the other end you just don’t get why people are mad at you :man_shrugging:

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@Dillon I don’t agree with keator that mistakes weren’t made, that’s a fallacy considering even pika’s team made mistakes. One thing that is common with you though when you stream is that you display this same crying behavior about every team you face unless they are blizzcon players. I digress.

I’m going to present a novel idea that has not been presented in this incredibly low IQ echo chamber you guys have here…counters exist in arenas. :open_mouth: I know, big WOW, much pog. No one is claiming to be better than pika or his team, that’s simply not true, they are a top level team, but since counters are actually a real thing, they can’t expect to win every game. The rogue clicks his kidney off cd with some spriest dots on the kill target, then they silence healer followed with a mind-bomb…is that what you call fast gameplay? That’s scripted gameplay, just like every team is scripted gameplay. Let’s present rogue/mage/healer, top 20 spots in the ladder. I’ll give you a run down of how the game goes.

Sap random target > open on kill target > hoj healer + poly > pop cds on kill target. Stop pretending the game isn’t scripted, what differentiates a top level player and a 2k big mouth is how they execute that aforementioned scripted gameplay.

Wait…you play…jungle? The script is a short one for you, pet stun > trap, QUICK POP CDS ON THE KILL TARGET. Man, i’m good at this. You’re not the only one that looks silly when you start talking like this, everyone does it.

The facts are these:

  1. People will always moan about comps they can’t beat, either because of pve items or otherwise
  2. Arena is not fair, stop thinking that it is
  3. Stop thinking that because you’re a better player that you deserve to win, you deserve nothing, it’s a video game.
  4. Like keator mentioned, there are soooo many dk/dh/healer at low rating, with equal or more gear, YET they cannot get to 2900 mmr, clearly the zug zug is not for everyone
  5. Mistakes are made every game, it’d be pure delusion to think otherwise. While watching you play jungle there is egregious mistakes made by you and your team every match, not every other match…literally every match. It happens, does it mean you’re trash? Maybe, who knows right? The gameplay is so slow that you still miss traps, I mean…let’s not speed it up, you might just quit playing right? Actually disgusting.
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What comp does cdew run at tournaments ? Anyone know ?

This is a great response. I agree saying that we didn’t really make mistakes is probably too far. It’s more like we didn’t make any mistakes that would have caused us to lose. People think we’re immortal and that’s just not true. If we were all immortal then like I said everyone with the same or better gear would instantly be at our rating it would only make sense.

I just started pvping for fun with my friends but I’m also a mythic raider so I understand how you can get punished for mistakes. Thinking that people auto-uninstall because the game changes is not a smart comment at all. We are playing in the current state and we will play it however it changes in 8.3 and shadowlands.

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@ Suifeng Cdew mainly runs ww/dk I believe and ww/mage swaps.

I never have said counters don’t exist, I have only stated when the game is fast paced that you can actually beat counters even if they’re very skilled just off of them making mistakes which is pretty much the ideal situation with wow.

I don’t know why you’re explaining all these things to me as if I don’t know them already

That’s only me just complaining because of how slow the game is and it just creates newer players that actually have no idea what’s going on, which is something I disagree with. However I have also found a very large amount of good up and coming players and have gotten so many people their first Rank 1 title, and while I can be biased in the moment I would say I actually have a fairly reasonable eye on a player that’s good or has potential to improve.

I think you’re just coming from a PoV where you don’t actually understand what you’re saying

I’ve also never claimed that I don’t make mistakes, although I would fairly point out that while the game in general is extremely slow the comp I generally play is super fragile so on my end I can have mistakes pretty easily forced which nearly auto lose the game but that won’t happen in reverse even if you make a checklist of the mistakes each side make and they have a massive amount more than me. But even then I’ve never said that I’m not prone to tilting with the current state of the game, it’s extremely frustrating to deal with if you’re super competitive and if you’re on tilt you’re also not playing very well

I just think you don’t realize that the entire point everyone is making is by the game being so slow you have absolutely 0 chance vs counters. I can think of so many seasons where the game is fast paced and counter match ups still exist but even at the highest level you could outplay them and win which is what makes the game exciting

Watching pikas team never have a chance of ever winning for example is quite silly.

If this is all you think I expect to be happening in a game then you just only look at the very basic obvious things that occur in a match and don’t think about all the little choices that are constant factors in a match but also just don’t matter much in a slow paced game (which leads to incredibly scripted gameplay). That’s the largest thing you’re missing.

That’s the same reason why from Keator’s PoV in that same game he’s just thinking “Oh well we used AMZ on Vendetta so we did everything right, can’t see anything else that was wrong”. It’s no fault to him whatsoever, but it’s just that people only think about the obvious things that are happening. Little things matter every second of the game when it is fast (micro plays) but when it’s slow all that matters are the really big things like just seeing a CD and trading something for it and everything else stops mattering.

I don’t know why you think I assume the game isn’t scripted, this is the exact reason why the best players say that the game needs to be fast paced because having fast paced arena makes it much harder to reach scripted play. It’s always going to be there in the background, but when it’s fast paced there are much more plays that matter more. A basic one is deathing a blind - matters in a fast paced game because now all momentum is lost… in a slow paced game it doesn’t really matter that blind got deathed anyways or you can just take all the time you need to make sure it doesn’t get deathed. But when it’s really fast paced the rogue also only has a finite window to get a blind that’s actually optimal otherwise him sitting there and doing nothing can get punished and it just creates a really fast cycle back and forth where one side can outplay the other and you have to be thinking quickly to optimize what happens before the other team punishes you. The counterplay opportunity that starts back and forth and starts punishing people for sitting there doing absolutely nothing does not exist when the game is very slow. It’s just one dimensional and a rogue can patiently wait forever to get the safest Blind and there’s no way he can make a mistake.

Same thing goes for hunters trapping, if the game is really slow especially with instant trapping and say the hunter was immortal, he could just sit there on top of the enemy healer forever and there’s nothing he could do as the hunter can always just wait out the time the healer has to death or use something. But when the time the hunter is spending on top of the healer doing nothing is actually able to get punished, then the healer can outplay him more and so can his team and there’s now a risk/reward to any situation that happens

You’re just coming from the PoV based on the frustrations that pretty much anyone will naturally have in the moment without realizing that there is still a reason why people are saying those things, it’s just not going to be clearly articulated.

As for the quitting thing I was making a general statement, DHDK being immmortal with tank items isn’t the only issue that’s in the game with it’s paing (mages, destros for ex). I can guarantee a large majority of RMPals would disappear if it wasn’t as forgiving. I’m not actually limiting this idea to one composition, I was making a very general statement that I am very confident will happen if things change, as I’ve watched this happen for years.

TL;DR counters always exist and the game has a script that will always exist, I have never once denied this. Slow paced gameplay=you can never beat counters and the game is going to be heavily leaned towards the script (which prevents you from beating counters to begin with). Fast paced wow=you have the opportunity to break away from the script, small creative outplays add up (preventing CC for example but this can be extremely deep), and you also can beat incredibly hard match ups. I can go on and give countless examples of how this happens if you really need, but trust me you’re just only scratching the surface on what you think you’re bringing up. I’m honestly barely even getting there with this post and it’s a disgusting wall of text, I could absolutely sit here and explain all of this but I just don’t really think typing is the best way to even understand all the information that goes into this.

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Ty. I was looking around and all I could find was DH DK for him.

Keator getting smashed on. Cdew signing checks using same comp lol.

Pika, absterge and wizk play the game for a living, play the game (arena) more than anyone else and play insane as a team and you think they deserve to be thrown around like ragdolls because dh dk is a counter to every comp except probably MLD?

Stupid thinking like this is what ruins things, please don’t try to defend this by just saying “hur dur counter hur dur” when people have always beat counters by actually being better, but now in this pruned dumb down game I guess people deserve to just auto lose to any counter?

You disgust me.

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Remove all artifact wep abilities from alrdy pruned Legion and put everything on GCD they said. dEvElOp OrGaNiC uWu they said.

Comp > skill
Gear > minmax
They ment :frowning:

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How can they not beat a counter though? I guarantee if you put them against a 2.4-2.5 mmr dh dk team they’d absolutely destroy them. We are the only dh dk at 2900 mmr despite the fact that there’s people with better or equal gear.

We do make small decisions from time to time that do affect the games. You don’t hear our comms so it’s hard to judge that we’re looking at it for just a basic level. You can’t really go too far in a text conversation.

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Yup I just lost all my remaining brain cells.

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@Suifeng I’m going to say ladder and tournament is completely different, but it pretty much runs down the same way more or less. Most games as dh/dk on ladder vs pika’s team you dont even have to spirit link, on tourny realm you might have to because of the lack of tank trinkets, but you still win the matchup unless you play poorly. I think complaining about ladder is a common theme since arena started in season 1 back in burning crusade. People will always complain, top level players are sore losers just like most people, they aren’t used to losing.

The game is slower paced, but it is slower paced for everyone, so when a team beats you, to flame them on stream incessantly is really bad form. This team that beat them is using tank trinkets, just like every meele class above 2k rating, it’s the state of the game…welcome to the game.

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Every class is forced to play their best comp in this current meta or you get stomped.

For example, you as a disc priest have to play rmpriest or jungle. You might be a trash player but can get to 2400 easily because your comp allows for it, why? Because of all the pressure you can deal as a disc priest which out dpses his own teammates…how? PVE TRINKETS!

Also one thing I would say on the prevalence of DHDK, there’s been plenty of tourney teams that have actually played it and utilized it all xpac long even though they never even qued it on ladder, it’s a straightforward comp for most of the high end players to que but it’s also fairly boring if you’re not playing for money - and ladder success is already coming to those players naturally

For other first time players I think it’s just not many of them also mythic raid, your entire team mythic raids and has optimal defensive items which gives an extra layer of forgiveness.

There’s nothing stopping someone like Trill+Mes, Vellido+any DH, or any just regular R1 DK player with any DH of getting R1 consistently or even a bunch of glad level ones it’s just not that interesting to them imo., honestly a lot of people have just quit because they find it boring and they don’t care

This even happened last season, the teams that played DHDK a lot in tourneys pmuch never played it on ladder since there was nothing to really practice with it

I mean guardian druid I don’t think anyone will dispute is also super stupid but it has low rep too

Mage/rogue/destro are really the major ones that are super popular and honestly the best thing they got going for them is they also can generally beat those types of immortal melee cleaves together but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re all not super stupid gameplay. There’s a lot of factors that go into representation in general so just looking at it without context is harmful.

If that DHDK didn’t have tank items they probably could win but if they actually had the same gear as your team I actually do think they would lose still

Idk I see you mentioning better gear but you guys have mythic versions of like all your defensive items lol

As you’ve said though this is really hard to do over text but I could legitimately give a bunch of super detailed explanations even going over in video what is even happening that’s constant and causing them to say what they are.

When the game is slower paced it favors the team that’s at the advantage much more because then it becomes impossible for their mistakes to throw the game. Or even for mistakes to get forced. Hence it becomes much more rock paper scissors oriented. This is the largest thing you do not understand.

@Dillon you keep mentioning what I don’t understand, and I can tell you that what you don’t understand is that I’m saying just because you lose to a team because of blizzard’s design shouldn’t give you reigns to flame them to 3000 people on a live stream, can you understand that, or is your judgement from being a friend of pika clouding this simple concept?

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All im going to say is, I remember another dh dk player, stabdh, who would go and say the same thing about how he was the only dh dk early in the ssn at the top of the ladder, and then at the end of the season when everyone came back for the sweaty 2 week announcement push, dude tanked and memed himself hard saying he was gonna get r1 blah blah blah.

All im saying is you being the only dh dk players at your rating this early in the season doesnt really matter, I assume most of the other ones are sitting happy with their Sinister titles in durotar.

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