I’m probably out of my element asking about this, but aren’t buff fantasy guys playing into both power fantasy and male gaze at the same time? I thought I once read about something like that, and how depictions of overly big guys are more “what men think straight women want” instead of actually for women themselves.
Male-gaze women don’t measure up because more often than not, they’re only drawn for titillation, and not because the artist thinks they’re drawing them to be strong. Trying to do that draws complaints that the woman looks too mannish and unattractive, like that viral tweet about Horizon Forbidden West from a while back.
Exactly! Look at all the criticism that Ellie was too masculine looking in the Last of Us part 2 trailer despite the fact that this game is set in a post apocalyptic world and she has no reason to dress feminine. In that world dressing feminine is dangerous. But there was an expectation that she would still be feminine so that fans could still objectify her because it wasn’t about realistically portraying a woman in this universe, it was more important that the viewers gaze was rewarded.
And honestly as a woman this just sets unrealistic standards for women, we are expected to be feminine even in the apocalypse. The male gaze also psychologically messes with female self worth. As much as men comparing themselves to the buff dudes they see in media probably does the same thing to male self worth.
I wonder if some of that pertains to the uncanny valley too. Those sort of criticisms seem to only come around in Sony exclusives, which have an unusually high graphic capability. The criticisms for how the characters look is silly, but I feel like the people complaining about it might be unconsciously affected in some way. There are other video games where women look plain and there hasn’t been any notable complaints about them. It probably has to do with who the games are marketed to though.
While you’re right that Illidan was a product of his time, you’re wrong about Illidan not being a power fantasy; power fantasies are about using fiction to live the life you want, being a role model is optional but not required. Illidan is an edgelord power fantasy - which was big in the 90’s with the Dark Age of Comics - especially in Legion (that Illidan killing Xe’ra cinematic felt like the writers were venting their mommy issues and/or against Sunday School).
Shirtless men - or buff men with partially open shirts showing their pecs and abs - are a staple of female romance novels and power fantasies. Fifty Shades of Grey is to women what Playboy is to men. The Fifty Shades of Grey movie caters to the female gaze, as does the entire Twilight franchise. Plus it’s possible to have sexy and badass characters; Wonder Woman, Samus Aran, Princess Leia, Lara Croft - characters who are both sex symbols and feminist icons. In fact, Wonder Woman was built around feminism, badassery and her creator’s fetishes (Marston was a feminist with a bondage fetish - Wonder Woman is a feminist icon whose signature weapon is a lasso); these are facts a lot of people these days ignore or reject.
There are plenty of people who consider Aloy attractive as she appears in the game without detracting from her badassery or respectability, including myself. This does bring to mind the double standard from certain feminists in the media industry, who complain about toxic masculinity yet make their female characters their idea of masculine in appearance and attitude; prime examples include the latest versions of She-Hulk and Captain Marvel plus Abby from The Last of Us Part 2.
Exactly. I like Sylvanas.
Some people like Sylvanus.
I do not like Sylvanus.
Nor do I care, I am simply stating a fact that there was no attempts at an Illidan redemption. There was no moment of Tyrande letting go of her desire for vengeance, to take the hand of Sylvanus and sing kumbaya.
Illidan had his desire, and this desire happened to be the good for all. You could also desire to make more money, you could be outright greedy about it, and greed is generally seen as a bad thing, but what if this greed just happen to make you do things that are good because it is more profitable?
You do not do good things because you are a good person, you do things that are perceived as good because it just so happens to coincide with your personal goal.
Again, one crazy, fanatic chandelier is hardly the type one should heed the word of. Xe’ra herself proved as much.
You may be right. I think Illidan is a power fantasy more for the writers - or at least some of them - than the audience.
I’ve seen the 2017 Wonder Woman movie and it’s a good film, I definitely recommend it (my only big complaint is they didn’t keep a major villain around for longer). For one example there’s a trench warfare scene in that movie which is just awesome (including seeing Wondy smash a tank aside by charging it)
Ironically Xe’ra was trotted out to lend weight to the idea of Illidan being redeemable by banking on naaru credibility at the time… then - given some fans backlash against the idea of “Illidan, Champion of the Light” - Blizzard quickly changed gears and used that naaru for subversive contrarianism and as a jobber for Illidan (that interview where the devs said Xe’ra was written to make players question whether the naaru are good came out one year after ‘Legion’ was released and around the same time as Patch 7.3 went live - who knows what changed between those times).
You like Sylvanas.
Other people don’t.
You don’t like whatever you call her to be at some point of the story.
Other people do.
There isn’t any rule in the world about how people were only right to like here when you personally liked her and how nobody should like her now that you personally don’t like her. Your opinion isn’t a great one that everyone should follow. Stop taking yourself more important than you are.
Sorry, are you really going to pretend under current climate that WoW didn’t / doesn’t objectify its female characters in problematic ways? Like, is there any more direct demonstration of the connection between real life and artistic sexism than juxtaposing stuff like this https://youtu.be/EcqY40Kx2RY and the workplace situation at Blizzard?
Whining about ‘the feminists’ and ‘the agenda’ is tired at the best of times, but like…
Look there’s a lot of debate that can and has been had re sexism and wow that goes well beyond what the ladies look like or what they wear (although there’s plenty of that to be had too). Why are all the leading female characters subject to intense abuse only to then get villainized for their reaction, for instance.
But beyond dry academic argument about the text and the broader culture and media criticism or w/e crap, there’s the really obvious argument that most of this is probably written with a male view in mind because the people in charge aren’t just for the most part men, but they’re men operating in what’s now a notoriously sexist-to-the-point-of-being-dangerous work environment.
Like, this moment in time at this company’s website is not the place to argue eVerYOnE is ObJeCTiFiEd.
Sorry, are you really going to try and put words in my mouth? While not entirely right, you have a point about major female characters in WoW getting villainized for their reaction to intense abuse - Tyrande, Jaina, Yrel… while Sylvanas could be added to that list, she’s done worse to others than what was done to her and her actions get whitewashed unlike theirs. Thankfully Alexstraza hasn’t been the villain-batted so far and I think Talanji has dodged it.
I could’ve worded that better; you’re right that it’s happening with some female characters in WoW, but not all of them. And that’s the “Victoria’s Secret question” interview I was referring to.
Edit: Upon further reflection, you have a point about the attire. While I don’t think a bit of fanservice here and there is a problem if it’s even handed, it does get over the top. For example, Inquisitor Whitemane was pretty scantily clad for a priest in life, and actually wears belly-bearing plate armor in undeath. Between her, Sylvanas and the fact that the uncensored word necr@philia is banned on these forums, that raises disturbing questions about how far the perverse lust in the company goes (apparently being dead isn’t an obstacle for sexualizing a character).
While you’re right about the company having a toxic workplace, facts are facts regardless of the circumstances. Plus, how many of the female staff who weren’t being abused were aware of it but didn’t speak out?
Yeah so I was open previously to the idea that people were just unkind to you because you’re an outspoken Christian or w/e, but nah, you really are deeply unempathetic and gross.
Thadeus have you heard of Steven Hassan’s BITE method of authoritarian control? Because I think you should look into that. You have displayed many of the Bite signs that you are indoctrinated in this thread alone, and you are trying to indoctrinate others with the same tactics. Behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control.
When I asked you to rejoin the real world it was out of compassion not hostility and I really hope you take this suggestion. It has nothing to do with your faith but the fact that you are using these authoritarian tactics on other people in this forum everytime you engage on this platform and you must have learned these tactics somewhere.
So because I ask the question of how many female staff - besides the ones being abused - knew about the abuse but didn’t speak out, I’m “unempathetic and gross”? In case there was a misunderstanding, I wasn’t - and am not - saying the abuse victims are lying about it.
Even if you were right about me, that wouldn’t rule out certain others being unkind to me for being an outspoken Christian.
No one is rude to you for being a Christian. We don’t like you because you are a misogynist.
You have looked down your nose at anyone here who is not a Christan. You hate athiests and people who have left the church. You especially hate women who have left the church and women in general, and why you necro’d this long dead thread because you got triggered by a random offhand comment made months ago about Lillian Voss’s loss of faith and her maybe enjoying life more because of it.
Pot meet kettle.
“What about the women who saw things and did nothing?” They were probably scared. They had no power it was clear in the investigation that Blizzard took retalitory action against women who spoke up. What about the men who did have power and looked the other way? There’s no equity here. There was a power imbalance that disproportionatly affected women more than men.
Your vitriolic comments towards me and my faith on other threads says otherwise, @Renautus, as do those of a few other people.
It’s telling that you make that baseless accusation against me simply for questioning whether some of the female staff at Blizzard might also be guilty of covering up the the abuse.
By the way, you said you’d blocked me, how did you see my comment?
