Very few fights will allow the kind of uptime these tests show. Many fights require melee to move, and they are also more prone to CC like fear.
*Magmadar fears and puts down fire that melee has to avoid.
*Garr requires melee switch between several adds, Garr himself is easy after Sons are handled.
*Baron Geddon requires melee run out fairly often.
*Shazzrah's arcane explosion prevents any meaningful melee dps.
*Golemagg requires melee stop attacking periodically to let debuff drop.
*Majordomo is another add intensive fight. Also adds can get shield that reflects melee or magic.
*Ragnaros has Wrath of Ragnaros which melee has to move out for, and Hammer of Ragnaros, which targets random players with mana bars and knocks them and anyone around them back.
*Onyxia is mostly about P2. Melee can't auto attack in P2, only special abilities. Melee hunter might still be able to do something, Paladin would be useless.
That leaves 3 bosses in early raids that nightfall could provide anywhere close to the uptime testers claim.
Then there is the fact that many guilds will give the weapon to OTs to use since they won't be contributing much dps anyway. This greatly reduces the uptime contributed by additional NF wielders.
Early game when NF is still a decent weapon, and under the right conditions, it could be worth it. Once you start getting into BWL and beyond it quickly becomes a worthless gimmick meant to justify terrible specs.
09/30/2018 05:06 PMPosted by SkjaldbjornVery few fights will allow the kind of uptime these tests show. Many fights require melee to move, and they are also more prone to CC like fear.
*Magmadar fears and puts down fire that melee has to avoid.
*Garr requires melee switch between several adds, Garr himself is easy after Sons are handled.
*Baron Geddon requires melee run out fairly often.
*Shazzrah's arcane explosion prevents any meaningful melee dps.
*Golemagg requires melee stop attacking periodically to let debuff drop.
*Majordomo is another add intensive fight. Also adds can get shield that reflects melee or magic.
*Ragnaros has Wrath of Ragnaros which melee has to move out for, and Hammer of Ragnaros, which targets random players with mana bars and knocks them and anyone around them back.
*Onyxia is mostly about P2. Melee can't auto attack in P2, only special abilities. Melee hunter might still be able to do something, Paladin would be useless.
That leaves 3 bosses in early raids that nightfall could provide anywhere close to the uptime testers claim.
Then there is the fact that many guilds will give the weapon to OTs to use since they won't be contributing much dps anyway. This greatly reduces the uptime contributed by additional NF wielders.
Early game when NF is still a decent weapon, and under the right conditions, it could be worth it. Once you start getting into BWL and beyond it quickly becomes a worthless gimmick meant to justify terrible specs.
FYI - according to Vanilla patch cycle, Nightfall wasn't available until BWL was released in patch 1.6
Never mind the fact that MC is a joke to begin with anyway :P
09/30/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Theloras
FYI - according to Vanilla patch cycle, Nightfall wasn't available until BWL was released in patch 1.6
Never mind the fact that MC is a joke to begin with anyway :P
I was just showing that most of the time nightfall is useless. We can look at AQ40 if you want.
Prophet teleports and splits a lot.
Princess Yauj fears every 20 seconds.
Fankriss is all about adds.
Viscidus is about freezing and then killing several smaller blobs.
Huhuran sleeps melee.
Twin Emps shouldn't need an explanation.
C'thun, lots of adds, random players going to stomach to make him vulnerable...Not going to be very effective for most of this fight.
So, 2 fights at best that you can expect nightfall to possibly be useful. I'm a bit foggy on Ouro. I do remember Sartura was pretty easy to kill once you got the adds down.
Well, at AQ40+ levels hunters might as well be your Nightfall bots anyways.
We get out scaled by shadow priests at those gear levels...The class that does such low damage you bring one to buff your warlocks.
You are required to bring hunters for Tranq shot rotations in the given raid. They might as well be in melee keeping the proc rolling for ranged since they have such high uptime anyways.
We get out scaled by shadow priests at those gear levels...The class that does such low damage you bring one to buff your warlocks.
You are required to bring hunters for Tranq shot rotations in the given raid. They might as well be in melee keeping the proc rolling for ranged since they have such high uptime anyways.
1 Like
09/30/2018 04:22 PMPosted by AgonyyMinmaxing kills video games
change my mind
Some classes in vanilla you can just show up and do good; Mage, Rogue, Hunter, Lock can all show up and they have a slot in raid.
Retribution paladin and the other hybrids on the other hand you need to bring the "Utility" to be worth while, and part of that requires you become part of the SWAT team.
Special Weapons and Tactics, gotta get on it if you want a raid spot in the top tier of content because the further you progress in Vanilla content the harder it gets.
Some of these guys that say AQ and Naxx are easy; they never did these raids when they were the real deal; not talking the broken private servers that have many things wrong..
Heck even consider the private servers; maybe 1% of the private server population ever gets half way into naxx; let along clear it. Yes it's that brutal. Mechanically complicated? No; straight brutal is what Naxx is.
I literally have zero interest in this subject matter and this is still the best thread I have seen on classic forum in a while.
1 Like
09/30/2018 12:23 PMPosted by ThelorasTHIS IS FROM PATCHWERK FFS!!!
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
Question. Is Braken using recklessness?
09/30/2018 08:07 PMPosted by JatrazzakWe get out scaled by shadow priests at those gear levels...The class that does such low damage you bring one to buff your warlocks.
You don't even need a dedicated shadow priest....r1 mind flay is cheap.
09/30/2018 06:49 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn09/30/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Theloras
FYI - according to Vanilla patch cycle, Nightfall wasn't available until BWL was released in patch 1.6
Never mind the fact that MC is a joke to begin with anyway :P
I was just showing that most of the time nightfall is useless. We can look at AQ40 if you want.
Prophet teleports and splits a lot.
Princess Yauj fears every 20 seconds.
Fankriss is all about adds.
Viscidus is about freezing and then killing several smaller blobs.
Huhuran sleeps melee.
Twin Emps shouldn't need an explanation.
C'thun, lots of adds, random players going to stomach to make him vulnerable...Not going to be very effective for most of this fight.
So, 2 fights at best that you can expect nightfall to possibly be useful. I'm a bit foggy on Ouro. I do remember Sartura was pretty easy to kill once you got the adds down.
Nightfall uptime is a Naxx thing.
09/30/2018 06:49 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn09/30/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Theloras
FYI - according to Vanilla patch cycle, Nightfall wasn't available until BWL was released in patch 1.6
Never mind the fact that MC is a joke to begin with anyway :P
I was just showing that most of the time nightfall is useless. We can look at AQ40 if you want.
Prophet teleports and splits a lot.
Princess Yauj fears every 20 seconds.
Fankriss is all about adds.
Viscidus is about freezing and then killing several smaller blobs.
Huhuran sleeps melee.
Twin Emps shouldn't need an explanation.
C'thun, lots of adds, random players going to stomach to make him vulnerable...Not going to be very effective for most of this fight.
So, 2 fights at best that you can expect nightfall to possibly be useful. I'm a bit foggy on Ouro. I do remember Sartura was pretty easy to kill once you got the adds down.
First of all, lol @ your run down of AQ40 - especially "Fankriss is all about adds"
There are only 2 fights in AQ40 where Nightfall isn't required - Viscidus and Twin Emps.
I swung Nightfall 100% of the time for my raiding guild in MC, BWL, AQ40 and Naxx for all trash and boss fights.
"C'thun, lots of adds, random players going to stomach to make him vulnerable...Not going to be very effective for most of this fight."
C'Thun going vulnerable for 45 seconds during phase 2 says hello :P
09/30/2018 08:07 PMPosted by JatrazzakWell, at AQ40+ levels hunters might as well be your Nightfall bots anyways.
We get out scaled by shadow priests at those gear levels...The class that does such low damage you bring one to buff your warlocks.
You are required to bring hunters for Tranq shot rotations in the given raid. They might as well be in melee keeping the proc rolling for ranged since they have such high uptime anyways.
The BEST setup to maximize Nightfall debuff uptime is:
1. Melee Hunter
2. Retribution Paladin
3. Prot Warrior Off-Tank***
***The Prot Warrior starts off with Annihilator and gets it to 3 stacks for -600 armor debuff, then switches to Nightfall, then back to Annihilator after 30 seconds to refresh stacks, and back to Nightfall, rinse, repeat***
With this setup, I would estimate that you could maintain ~75% Nightfall debuff uptime. With just a Melee Hunter and myself, my previous raiding guild averaged 60% uptime.
There will of course be some overlap but I would say 75% is definitely doable.
09/30/2018 09:25 PMPosted by KrewellaI literally have zero interest in this subject matter and this is still the best thread I have seen on classic forum in a while.
GOD WILLS IT!!!
09/30/2018 08:07 PMPosted by JatrazzakWell, at AQ40+ levels hunters might as well be your Nightfall bots anyways.
We get out scaled by shadow priests at those gear levels...The class that does such low damage you bring one to buff your warlocks.
You are required to bring hunters for Tranq shot rotations in the given raid. They might as well be in melee keeping the proc rolling for ranged since they have such high uptime anyways.
My advice is to use all of three of these classes to maximize the debuff uptime:
1. Melee Hunter
2. Retribution Paladin
3. Prot Warrior Off-Tank
If you do this setup, then I guarantee that your guild casters will LOVE you forever.
09/30/2018 11:55 PMPosted by Zeliek09/30/2018 12:23 PMPosted by ThelorasTHIS IS FROM PATCHWERK FFS!!!
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
Question. Is Braken using recklessness?09/30/2018 08:07 PMPosted by JatrazzakWe get out scaled by shadow priests at those gear levels...The class that does such low damage you bring one to buff your warlocks.
You don't even need a dedicated shadow priest....r1 mind flay is cheap.
I don't know as I'm not in his guild but I would assume so - I merely grabbed him as he is top Fury Warrior DPS for Patchwerk on Lightbringer as per
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Ranking/
1 Braken (136.1 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1503.7/s
2 Aratore (157.01 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1499.7/s
3 Wrath (128.85 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1496.3/s
4 Thaloss (149.33 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1460.6/s
5 Mn (160.17 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1453.3/s
6 Tetsu (136.54 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1411.5/s
7 Niknik (143.45 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1402.2/s
8 Porkjob (149.33 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1346/s
9 Actus (158.71 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1319/s
10 Nharz (153.79 seconds) (Lightbringer) 1312.5/s
10/01/2018 04:50 AMPosted by Undertankerx09/30/2018 06:49 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn...
I was just showing that most of the time nightfall is useless. We can look at AQ40 if you want.
Prophet teleports and splits a lot.
Princess Yauj fears every 20 seconds.
Fankriss is all about adds.
Viscidus is about freezing and then killing several smaller blobs.
Huhuran sleeps melee.
Twin Emps shouldn't need an explanation.
C'thun, lots of adds, random players going to stomach to make him vulnerable...Not going to be very effective for most of this fight.
So, 2 fights at best that you can expect nightfall to possibly be useful. I'm a bit foggy on Ouro. I do remember Sartura was pretty easy to kill once you got the adds down.
Nightfall uptime is a Naxx thing.
And very much a Naxx thing!
yeah u will be running your rets/melee hunters in a raid that takes 3 hours to clear mc ,3 days to clear aq40 and does 1 wing of naxx during full reset
screw the meme specs
run 1 tank with anih (maybe even use extra one on 1h fury) and other offtank with nightfall - if u will hear that your guild wants to bring ret paly , nightfall hunter , shadow priest , boomkin - just do yourself a favor and look for another guild - u will have more time to play the game - clear the raids fast and efficient , use the extra time to farm some extra gold for a respec so u can play w/e meme spec u want
screw the meme specs
run 1 tank with anih (maybe even use extra one on 1h fury) and other offtank with nightfall - if u will hear that your guild wants to bring ret paly , nightfall hunter , shadow priest , boomkin - just do yourself a favor and look for another guild - u will have more time to play the game - clear the raids fast and efficient , use the extra time to farm some extra gold for a respec so u can play w/e meme spec u want
1 Like
10/01/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Syleeyeah u will be running your rets/melee hunters in a raid that takes 3 hours to clear mc ,3 days to clear aq40 and does 1 wing of naxx during full reset
screw the meme specs
run 1 tank with anih (maybe even use extra one on 1h fury) and other offtank with nightfall - if u will hear that your guild wants to bring ret paly , nightfall hunter , shadow priest , boomkin - just do yourself a favor and look for another guild - u will have more time to play the game - clear the raids fast and efficient , use the extra time to farm some extra gold for a respec so u can play w/e meme spec u want
you seem mad friend...
i cant believe there are that many hunters out there that want to just spam wing clip over and over again every time they raid
10/01/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Zionfisti cant believe there are that many hunters out there that want to just spam wing clip over and over again every time they raid
this is why...
5 Most Overpowered Items in Classic WoW
https://youtu.be/1VmKx1mFRrY?t=254
"However, the best class suited for equipping Nightfall was Hunters as their spell Wing Clip had no cool down and could be spammed as Rank 1 for as long as you want. You would never run out of mana and you could just spam it over and over again. Each cast of Wing Clip had a chance of applying the proc from Nightfall. How ironic that a ranged DPS class has a melee DPS spec using this weapon."
10/01/2018 11:16 AMPosted by Theloras10/01/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Zionfisti cant believe there are that many hunters out there that want to just spam wing clip over and over again every time they raid
this is why...
5 Most Overpowered Items in Classic WoW
https://youtu.be/1VmKx1mFRrY?t=254
"However, the best class suited for equipping Nightfall was Hunters as their spell Wing Clip had no cool down and could be spammed as Rank 1 for as long as you want. You would never run out of mana and you could just spam it over and over again. Each cast of Wing Clip had a chance of applying the proc from Nightfall. How ironic that a ranged DPS class has a melee DPS spec using this weapon."
yeah, im aware of that it just seems too boring to actually do. i'll probably be rolling a horde hunter and looking for some easy raid drops early on but i dont know if i could bring myself to do that more than one night or so.
should be easier to find a shaman to do it
So assuming that the proc rates and all that are perfectly blizzlike, it appears that when choosing for a ret pally or a hunter uptime on nightfall duty it comes down to the question of:
Which is greater? The ret on nightfall duty and hunter as marks doing their best dps rotation, or a 2.25% increase in your raid's casters. (Assuming both players would otherwise be in the same raid together)
The uptime difference on average would work out to about a 2.25% difference in caster damage (15% greater uptime of a 15% damage buff)
If you are trying to pick between the two for the last raid slot, then it comes down to if the paladin themselves can out-DPS a mostly autoattacking hunter by more than 2.25% of their raid's caster dps.
If they can, go with the ret (it will depend on the number of casters in the raid), if they can't, then go with the hunter.
Generally that level of min-maxing isnt super important, and won't frequently be the difference between a wipe or kill, but it is an interesting math problem.
Which is greater? The ret on nightfall duty and hunter as marks doing their best dps rotation, or a 2.25% increase in your raid's casters. (Assuming both players would otherwise be in the same raid together)
The uptime difference on average would work out to about a 2.25% difference in caster damage (15% greater uptime of a 15% damage buff)
If you are trying to pick between the two for the last raid slot, then it comes down to if the paladin themselves can out-DPS a mostly autoattacking hunter by more than 2.25% of their raid's caster dps.
If they can, go with the ret (it will depend on the number of casters in the raid), if they can't, then go with the hunter.
Generally that level of min-maxing isnt super important, and won't frequently be the difference between a wipe or kill, but it is an interesting math problem.