An update for those who are interested in this setup/playstyle - using the macro that Ayeri wrote to calculate Nightfall debuff uptime, here is a comparison from last week with just me using Nightfall to this week where my guild gave a 2nd Nightfall to a Hunter:
89 seconds of nightfall uptime last week with just me using Nightfall
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/430549612319735808/patchwerk_nightfall_uptime_two.jpg
2 x Nightfalls last night = 150 seconds of uptime (Me and a Melee Hunter)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/433069830271401984/double_nightfall.jpg
bump for goodness due to this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/lightshope/comments/9jg5bu/hybrid_classes_in_raids/
And a reminder if you would like to test Nightfall debuff uptime yourself, these are the two macros you need (on top of the Super Macro addon):
Macro 1
/in 1+ /script for i=1,16 do local texture = UnitDebuff("target",i); if texture and texture == "Interface\\Icons\\Spell_Holy_ElunesGrace" then NfCount = NfCount + 1; DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(NfCount) end end
Macro 2
/script SM_INFRAME:Hide(); NfCount = 0
Use Macro 2 first to clear your chat frame, then use Macro 1 - at the end of the boss fight combat press Macro 2 again to stop counting then refresh your UI to clear it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/lightshope/comments/9jg5bu/hybrid_classes_in_raids/
And a reminder if you would like to test Nightfall debuff uptime yourself, these are the two macros you need (on top of the Super Macro addon):
Macro 1
/in 1+ /script for i=1,16 do local texture = UnitDebuff("target",i); if texture and texture == "Interface\\Icons\\Spell_Holy_ElunesGrace" then NfCount = NfCount + 1; DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(NfCount) end end
Macro 2
/script SM_INFRAME:Hide(); NfCount = 0
Use Macro 2 first to clear your chat frame, then use Macro 1 - at the end of the boss fight combat press Macro 2 again to stop counting then refresh your UI to clear it.
1 Like
How long does it take to get the Thorium brotherhood rep needed?
Will thorium brotherhood items be "Time locked" like they were in Vanilla meaning Nightfall weapon plans will not even exist until BWL???
Will thorium brotherhood items be "Time locked" like they were in Vanilla meaning Nightfall weapon plans will not even exist until BWL???
09/30/2018 11:28 AMPosted by HärländHow long does it take to get the Thorium brotherhood rep needed?
Will thorium brotherhood items be "Time locked" like they were in Vanilla meaning Nightfall weapon plans will not even exist until BWL???
it's not hard at all if say a guild pools all of their mats for specific crafters to reach exalted for important recipes asap
whether Blizzard time locks it for BWL release in Classic remains to be seen
09/30/2018 11:29 AMPosted by Theloras09/30/2018 11:28 AMPosted by HärländHow long does it take to get the Thorium brotherhood rep needed?
Will thorium brotherhood items be "Time locked" like they were in Vanilla meaning Nightfall weapon plans will not even exist until BWL???
it's not hard at all if say a guild pools all of their mats for specific crafters to reach exalted for important recipes asap
whether Blizzard time locks it for BWL release in Classic remains to be seen
I have never personally tested that weapon my self, but would firey / life stealing / unholy weapon (all whom proc like the dickens) also proc this weapon's effect as they count as melee swing?
fury prot ot is the best for nightfall. You typically have enough rage to spam hamstring on gcd as well as having the flurry bonus for extra attack speed. So the whole argument about being able tp spam wingclip is moot if you have a proper fury prot set. Rage is enough to keep it going endlessly. Even if you were to get low on rage due that's what rage potions are for but there are quite a few fights where you're struggling to dump all your rage. Tanks also twist nightfall with annihilator anyways so there's really no reason for a hunter to be doing it. Uptime is still very close to optimal twisting.
09/30/2018 11:49 AMPosted by Gattzfury prot ot is the best for nightfall. You typically have enough rage to spam hamstring on gcd as well as having the flurry bonus for extra attack speed. So the whole argument about being able tp spam wingclip is moot if you have a proper fury prot set. Rage is enough to keep it going endlessly.
Incorrect.
Fury Warrior will have top Nightfall uptime of any class or spec BUT you effectively drop their own personal DPS by 1/3 to 1/2 as shown by Keftenk's testing:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424708585466101763/unknown.png - Fury Nightfall = 863 DPS + 49% debuff uptime in BiS forever
Compared to a Fury Warrior doing 1500+ DPS with normal dual wield 1hand BiS weapons:
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1% https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=759780
Plus we also have this video as a reference from actual retail Vanilla:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA
As for having an OT Prot Warrior, they will be rage starved even with PvP gloves and ZG Necklace due to 3.5 swing speed - plus they should also be using Annihilator to 3 stacks for -600 armor debuff, then siwtching to Nightfall, then back to Annihilator, rinse, repeat.
More test results with Warriors Fury vs Prot OT with Nightfall:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/425001731001155594/unknown.png
09/30/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Theloras09/30/2018 11:49 AMPosted by Gattzfury prot ot is the best for nightfall. You typically have enough rage to spam hamstring on gcd as well as having the flurry bonus for extra attack speed. So the whole argument about being able tp spam wingclip is moot if you have a proper fury prot set. Rage is enough to keep it going endlessly.
Incorrect.
Fury Warrior will have top Nightfall uptime of any class or spec BUT you effectively drop their own personal DPS by 1/3 to 1/2 as shown by Keftenk's testing:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424708585466101763/unknown.png - Fury Nightfall = 863 DPS + 49% debuff uptime in BiS forever
Compared to a Fury Warrior doing 1500+ DPS with normal dual wield 1hand BiS weapons:
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1% https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=759780
Plus we also have this video as a reference from actual retail Vanilla:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA
As for having an OT Prot Warrior, they will be rage starved even with PvP gloves and ZG Necklace due to 3.5 swing speed - plus they should also be using Annihilator to 3 stacks for -600 armor debuff, then siwtching to Nightfall, then back to Annihilator, rinse, repeat.
More test results with Warriors Fury vs Prot OT with Nightfall:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/425001731001155594/unknown.png
They are the offtank so their gear is going to reflect that not maximum dps sets, so your comparison saying they're losing out on 1500 dps isn't accurate. The higher dps you're listing is more related to cleave/multi target fights. I don't need your test results as I have done this first hand and seen it. No min maxing guild is going to bring a ret to raids so you're kind of delusional if you believe that. I can see the hunter option happening though if you have extremely lazy tanks who can't be bothered. Another thing you have to remember is that nightfall uptime isn't the end all be all since casters take a back seat to melee damage around naxx (even before that if you start with 1.12 balance on early raids). The only situation you should see them beating melee is probably the lucky mage with rolling ignites.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Incorrect.
Fury Warrior will have top Nightfall uptime of any class or spec BUT you effectively drop their own personal DPS by 1/3 to 1/2 as shown by Keftenk's testing:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424708585466101763/unknown.png - Fury Nightfall = 863 DPS + 49% debuff uptime in BiS forever
Compared to a Fury Warrior doing 1500+ DPS with normal dual wield 1hand BiS weapons:
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1% https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=759780
Plus we also have this video as a reference from actual retail Vanilla:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA
As for having an OT Prot Warrior, they will be rage starved even with PvP gloves and ZG Necklace due to 3.5 swing speed - plus they should also be using Annihilator to 3 stacks for -600 armor debuff, then siwtching to Nightfall, then back to Annihilator, rinse, repeat.
More test results with Warriors Fury vs Prot OT with Nightfall:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/425001731001155594/unknown.png
They are the offtank so their gear is going to reflect that not maximum dps sets. I don't need your test results as I have done this first hand and seen it. No min maxing guild is going to bring a ret to raids so you're kind of delusional if you believe that. I can see the hunter option happening though if you have extremely lazy tanks who can't be bothered. Another thing you have to remember is that nightfall uptime isn't the end all be all since casters take a back seat to melee damage around naxx (even before that if you start with 1.12 balance on early raids). The only situation you should see them beating melee is probably the lucky mage with rolling ignites.
Math doesn't lie - having a Fury Warrior swing Nightfall compared to either a Melee Hunter or Retribution Paladin ends up being a DPS NET LOSS to the raid.
They gain a few more seconds of Nightfall debuff uptime but their own personal DPS goes down the toilet by 1/3 to 1/2.
Even in BiS forever gear + full world buffs, a Fury Warrior's max DPS ceiling while swinging Nightfall is under 900 DPS with 48% debuff uptime:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424708585466101763/unknown.png
Compared to a Fury Warrior doing 1500+ DPS with normal dual wield 1hand BiS weapons:
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1% https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=759780
Whereas I as a Retribution Paladin could easily do ~750 DPS personally with BiS forever gear stacking +spell damage and full world buffs with Nightfall and still maintain ~40% debuff uptime.
I came in to this thread expecting an episode of Celebrity Deathmatch WoW style and leave sad.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
They are the offtank so their gear is going to reflect that not maximum dps sets. I don't need your test results as I have done this first hand and seen it. No min maxing guild is going to bring a ret to raids so you're kind of delusional if you believe that. I can see the hunter option happening though if you have extremely lazy tanks who can't be bothered. Another thing you have to remember is that nightfall uptime isn't the end all be all since casters take a back seat to melee damage around naxx (even before that if you start with 1.12 balance on early raids). The only situation you should see them beating melee is probably the lucky mage with rolling ignites.
Math doesn't lie - having a Fury Warrior swing Nightfall compared to either a Melee Hunter or Retribution Paladin ends up being a DPS NET LOSS to the raid.
They gain a few more seconds of Nightfall debuff uptime but their own personal DPS goes down the toilet by 1/3 to 1/2.
Even in BiS forever gear + full world buffs, a Fury Warrior's max DPS ceiling while swinging Nightfall is under 900 DPS with 48% debuff uptime:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424708585466101763/unknown.png
Compared to a Fury Warrior doing 1500+ DPS with normal dual wield 1hand BiS weapons:
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1% https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=759780
Whereas I as a Retribution Paladin could easily do ~750 DPS personally with BiS forever gear stacking +spell damage and full world buffs with Nightfall and still maintain ~40% debuff uptime.
Sorry not buying it, people have research conducted from their own raids as well not just your snapshots on legacyplayers with specific individuals. You are not pushing those kinds of numbers in tank gear so the loss is irrelevant, but you seem to act as if the tank is going to have bis dps gear. It's easy to use a small sample size to throw off the assessment of what is actually practical in a raid environment. Again, cleave fights, sure you're upwards of 1500 dps, and fights like loatheb, etc, without those fights, no. Single target fights your damage goes down drastically.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Math doesn't lie - having a Fury Warrior swing Nightfall compared to either a Melee Hunter or Retribution Paladin ends up being a DPS NET LOSS to the raid.
They gain a few more seconds of Nightfall debuff uptime but their own personal DPS goes down the toilet by 1/3 to 1/2.
Even in BiS forever gear + full world buffs, a Fury Warrior's max DPS ceiling while swinging Nightfall is under 900 DPS with 48% debuff uptime:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/424708585466101763/unknown.png
Compared to a Fury Warrior doing 1500+ DPS with normal dual wield 1hand BiS weapons:
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1% https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=759780
Whereas I as a Retribution Paladin could easily do ~750 DPS personally with BiS forever gear stacking +spell damage and full world buffs with Nightfall and still maintain ~40% debuff uptime.
Sorry not buying it, people have research conducted from their own raids as well not just your snapshots on legacyplayers with specific individuals. You are not pushing those kinds of numbers in tank gear so the loss is irrelevant, but you seem to act as if the tank is going to have bis dps gear.
THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT - even in BiS gear a Fury Warrior caps at under 900 DPS with Nightfall - compared to 1500+ with dual wield 1h
You gain +5-10% more debuff uptime with a Fury Warrior swinging Nightfall, but their personal DPS goes down the toilet in the process which ends up in a NET LOSS of DPS.
THIS IS FROM PATCHWERK FFS!!!
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=759780
or from actual Vanilla WoW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA
09/30/2018 12:20 PMPosted by GattzSorry not buying it, people have research conducted from their own raids as well not just your snapshots on legacyplayers with specific individuals. You are not pushing those kinds of numbers in tank gear so the loss is irrelevant, but you seem to act as if the tank is going to have bis dps gear.
There's merit to experimentation on this level, but I don't think its worth while on the private servers; this is where Theloras I think wastes too much time because private server results are only valid for private servers; not Classic WoW or even original Vanilla where I know things were and are going to be very different because the back end (server side stuff) where the real action takes place is calculated differently and who knows what the original values were.. We literally do not know how it was done, we were only guessing (private servers).
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Sorry not buying it, people have research conducted from their own raids as well not just your snapshots on legacyplayers with specific individuals. You are not pushing those kinds of numbers in tank gear so the loss is irrelevant, but you seem to act as if the tank is going to have bis dps gear.
THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT - even in BiS gear a Fury Warrior caps at under 900 DPS with Nightfall - compared to 1500+ with dual wield 1h
You gain +5-10% more debuff uptime with a Fury Warrior swinging Nightfall, but their personal DPS goes down the toilet in the process which ends up in a NET LOSS of DPS.
THIS IS FROM PATCHWERK FFS!!!
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=759780
or from actual Vanilla WoW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA
So what you're saying is braken is speced fury prot? Because if not then that doesn't apply. I've mentioned this a few times but i'm talking about tanks / hybrids not players that are full fury with impale.
nightfall should be given to one of your offtanks not currently tanking the boss. he'll do more dps swinging a 2h axe than a 1h sword or dagger. hunter should be rdps, toggle on your autoshot and walk away, and any decent ret paladin can do respectable dps. dont gimp your paladins moment to prove everyone wrong by making him use an inferior weapon.
09/30/2018 02:27 PMPosted by Apoxeytoggle on your autoshot and walk away,
Auto shoot and moving do not work in Vanilla, you're thinking modern wow here.
This is why hunters in vanilla mastered the stutter-step.
09/30/2018 12:36 PMPosted by Gattz...
THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT - even in BiS gear a Fury Warrior caps at under 900 DPS with Nightfall - compared to 1500+ with dual wield 1h
You gain +5-10% more debuff uptime with a Fury Warrior swinging Nightfall, but their personal DPS goes down the toilet in the process which ends up in a NET LOSS of DPS.
THIS IS FROM PATCHWERK FFS!!!
3 Braken (204653) 1503.7/s 5.1%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=21878&upl=31496&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=759780
or from actual Vanilla WoW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA
So what you're saying is braken is speced fury prot? Because if not then that doesn't apply. I've mentioned this a few times but i'm talking about tanks / hybrids not players that are full fury with impale.
No Braken is full Fury using dual wield KT weapons - but you had originally said that a Fury Warrior would only be able to do 1500+ DPS in a Cleave/Add fight whereas that DPS parse was specifically from Patchwerk.
At any rate, we looked at different specs for each class that can use Nightfall - suce as Fury vs Prot/Arms comparison for personal DPS and Nightfall debuff uptime - with full gearset and raid/world buffs listed:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/415573477282545695/425001731001155594/unknown.png
20/31/0 Fury Warrior = 863 DPS + 49% debut uptime with BiS forever gear
17/3/31 Prot Warrior = 458 DPS + 41% uptime with mix BiS/Tier 3 gear
Compared to me as Retribution doing 574 DPS with ~40% Nightfall debuff uptime in my current gear (very good but not BiS forever) with full world buffs against Patchwerk:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/484066664506458113/2x_Nightfall_PW.jpg
With improvements in several slots of my gear, I can push that to 700-750 DPS
https://legacyplayers.com/Armory/?charid=767344
09/30/2018 02:27 PMPosted by Apoxeynightfall should be given to one of your offtanks not currently tanking the boss. he'll do more dps swinging a 2h axe than a 1h sword or dagger. hunter should be rdps, toggle on your autoshot and walk away, and any decent ret paladin can do respectable dps. dont gimp your paladins moment to prove everyone wrong by making him use an inferior weapon.
The OT weaves both Nightfall AND this weapon:
Annihilator
Binds when equipped
Main Hand Axe
49 - 92 Damage Speed 1.70
(41.5 damage per second)
Durability 90 / 90
Requires Level 58
Chance on hit: Reduces an enemy's armor by 200. Stacks up to 3 times. (Duration 45 seconds)
http://classicdb.ch/?item=12798
1. Start with Annihilator and get to 3 stacks
2. Switch to Nightfall for 30+ seconds
3. Go back to Annihilator to refresh stacks
4. Back to Nightfall for another 30+ seconds
5. Rinse
6. Repeat
PS This OT won't be able to swing Nightfall on fights like Patchwerk since they will also be tanking.
Minmaxing kills video games
change my mind
change my mind
09/30/2018 04:22 PMPosted by AgonyyMinmaxing kills video games
change my mind
class homogenization in retail going back to Cataclysm killed wow