it’s a balance because you have to not only look at raid contribution DPS from debuff uptime but their own personal DPS as well at the same time.
For example, a Fury Warrior has the highest debuff uptime at 50% but their personal DPS goes down the toilet in the process instead of going d/w 1handers.
Our testing showed that an absolute BiS forever geared Fury Warrior maxes out at 900 DPS on PW whereas similarly geared d/w Fury Warriors on LH can do 1500-1800 DPS on PW.
This ends up resulting in a net DPS LOSS by having a Fury Warrior swing Nightfall.
On the flip side, you have Melee Hunters getting around 45% uptime but doing 1/3 to 1/2 of the DPS that a Ret Paladin with Nightfall can do.
Take a look at the numbers I posted. The difference isn’t that large. Tranq shot can be done by another hunter in the same vain that paladins bring the same buffs, utility, and ability to switch roles. If you looked at the numbers, taking both wouldn’t be bad either.
I should first commend all the great theorycrafting thats been in this thread and others, but it is the calculations that attempted to quantify raid DPS for the trio of NF wielders that had me a bit concerned.
It starts off by assuming that you have all of the necessary tranq shots and tanks, and is trying to maximize DPS on the margin. My point is that two of the three classes contribute more necessary raid utility if you aren’t already making that assumption. (to be fair I’m assuming youre getting all the necessary buffs from holy paly’s).
Maybe a more direct way of getting my point across is that more often than not both the OT warrior AND ret pally need to be valued above replacement (which in both cases is the geared fury war). Hunters will be valued against replacement for their normally poor scaling self, but raids have already largely optimized to run as few hunters as possible.
As you said, you are making a biased assumption. Using a bias skews results and so you put them all on equal footing to get rid of that skew. Tanking is a role not utility. So the hunter and paladin both provide utility and can both be over and under saturated. And you can’t assume the raid is optimized unless you are specifically specifying the elitist hardcore guilds
If you have more than 1 ret paladin in raid or even a protection paladin, do they benefit in any kind of reasonable way by the nightfall proc to a point where it’s a noticeable net positive for them?
How does this improve shadow, balance or elemental?
It’s very noticeable. A spell damage paladin would find it even more helpful. Since the tankadin’s threat is pretty much 100% spell damage the benefit is very beneficial there.
The other three do 100% of their damage as magical so they would receive the full benefit, but their dps is lower so the absolute value would be lower than it would be for a mage as an example.
You should be aware, like most anti-private serverists, you are most likely incredibly wrong in thinking that classic will be HARDER than pservers. Its the other way around buddy. Pservers increased armor values specifically because they did not want to be called out for making a easy game of the vanilla experience. People are simply 10x better at the game now. Its not that hard to accept, and you are some kind of ignorant if you cling to pservers being this thing that does not matter at all, lalal hands over ears, i remember it being so hard when i was 8 on daddys lap.
WRONG its a result of 10x the player skill, practice, preparation and therefore consumable usage, and knowledge of everything needed to create top end performance.
Ironsides, is that you buddy? I know you love them private servers but holy cow, you’re more a zealot on this form.
Being that as it may, how accurate are the private servers really? I am asking, not sure about that guy you’re quoting but whatever… Just curious how accurate you think they are.
90%, and that 10% difference is them being mostly overtuned compared to real vanilla. People who discredit the incredible work thats been put in here deserve to be kicked out the door of this wonderful community.
Rip so they censor huh. what a shame. why do u even post here theloras? I feel like all these retail people dont want to accept what is true, they dont want rets to be viable …why…they have such hatred for no reason its sad.
I wouldn’t make statements about what Classic will be like in comparison to difficulty to Private Servers. Once we have a Beta we will have a good idea.
I don’t think people have said anything to the effect that it was anything short of a monumental effort.
What makes you feel they’re even close to truly accurate regarding PVE?
Why do you assume they’re over tuned? Would that not be dependent on the server you’re on? Are not some very different from others?
They censor anything they feel is “offensive”, it’s such a vague argument that it can be applied to nearly anything. I hear that there is a fellow how got banned almost a year later because the verbiage he used was previously OK but later on became an offensive subject and they banned him.
It is ridiculous, but that’s their absurd rules.
Actually a misnomer. The PVE videos I have seen of private server raiding is actually really bad. Not saying that the PVE videos of actual Vanilla is any good; these were typically produced by low to mid tier guilds who were documenting their progress or to provide bragging rights. They were not in any way a “Showcase of skill”.
The private server PVE is often available via streaming or youtube, and its down right pitiful to watch at times. I would not call this “epic skill” or new discoveries… Min-Maxing has been around for a very long time, and most of the stuff I keep seeing the private server players claiming as “advancement” is nothing more than the standard operating procedure for a mid to upper mid Vanilla guild.
I could be looking entirely in the wrong places, but I doubt I will see much better. So far I have not seen any PVP improvements either, nothing from the private realms is any more advanced or “leet” than the end of Vanilla / TBC era of PVP.
Its seriously cool that they exist and that they have done a fantastic thing for the Classic community by promoting the idea to Blizzard to FINALLY get this boat moving, but honestly I don’t see that they’re anything to write home about. In reality I doubt they’re any better or worse as a player base than the original generation of WoW players.
You may have personally improved, but not every player is equal; everyone develops as a player of a game at different rates. Some are fantastic from day 1, and some are crap for 5 years… Different players mature at different rates, and because of that it’s easy to mistake your own improvements and the improvements of your friends for a community wide advancement when the truth is the bar was already set 12 years ago.
alas Shaman can no longer use 2h weapons - from TBC onwards Enhancement Shaman were given dual wield instead
never mind the fact that so many classes’ abilities, talents and spells have changed immeasureably that testing on live retail would offer no results that could be transferred over to Vanilla/Classic
