How about offtank?
Is there any video evidence that you know of that shows Flametongue not proccing weapon procs? I know there is no patch note evidence and because it is applied as an enchant the likelihood is low.
Interesting tidbit about SoR: Seal of Righteousness hits are also considered an additional melee strike for the purposes of additional weapon procs; for example, a Fiery Weapon enchant has a chance to proc off both the white hit and the SoR hit. Flametongue totem acts the same way: With Righteousness up, a paladin will get two Flametongue hits per swing, as itās adding damage for both the swing and the proc. Other weapon procs are presumed to work the same fashion.
Edit: SoR acting like a melee swing also explains why itās affected by Weapon Spec talents.
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/9664-paladin-seal-mechanics/page-3
the page is long gone but if you do a search on twinstarās bug report page for
ā#VANILLA-6785: [Seal of Righteousness]ā you will find it and other info laid out
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I know about SoR acting as a weapon hit, plenty of evidence available. I was talking about evidence of whether Flametongue weapon did the same as SoR, i.e. acting as an extra weapon swing.
no i know - read what I posted again
" Flametongue totem acts the same way"
That quote is only referring to the fact that flametongue totem acts as fiery weapon does.
oh sorry - iāve never played a Shaman so Iām a derp at how they play
The only other class other than paladin that interests me.
Itās my opinion that because of the kinda incomplete design direction of Paladin, Shaman, and Hunter that makes them the most interesting classes in Classic WoW by a large margin.
If I play alliance Iāll have to play a paladin alt.
I just hope you guys are in the paladin classic forum to discuss the finer details.
However, if I play horde then Iāll alt a shaman.
Were talking about 40 man raids here, there is always a couple underperforming dps might as well let them have some utility 
I am more for enchancement shaman nightfall providing improved windfury but thats just me because if your not healing as pally your doing it wrong 
I like my paladins looking like they just bought their entire outfit from the goodwill lol.
Cloth leather, it helps healing it fits its good!
#horde player.
as I laid out earlier in this thread, just be aware that Windfury will NOT trigger weapon procs in Vanilla which ends up dropping Enhancementās total debuff uptime to ~25% overall since they only have auto-attack and Stormstrike (20 sec cd) to trigger procs
Yea i get it but if i want a utility dps I want improved windfury just for the melee group in general. What utility does a ret paladin really give that is unique to being a ret paladin.
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thatās koo
we bring the DEEPSā¦
Itās better for off tanks so you donāt waste a raid slotā¦
horde side is still going to have shaman doing this even if its sub optimal
hunters usually dont want to, and who can blame them? the point of playing games is to have fun, not to be bored out of your mind for the good of the raid
The best overall situation is to have the all of the following swinging Nightfall:
- Ret Paladin
- Melee Hunter
- Prot Warrior OT (weaving Nightfall + Annihilator)
If you do that, you can average upwards of ~80% total debuff uptime
Thatās actually really decent for % uptimeā¦
Question I have; where is the threshold of caster DPS in raid for that buff to be truly useful?
I can see that the buff would be kinda lame if you did not have many casters and in turn just not worth while, but if you have a certain number then it would be a nice buff. Has any one done the math on that part?
Me solo swinging Nightfall on PW = 37% uptime
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/484066529030438912/patchwerk_nightfall_uptime_two.jpg
Melee Hunter + Me with Nightfall on PW = 65% uptime
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/484066527721684992/double_nightfall.jpg
obviously you would want to prioritize Caster DPS to maximize the debuff but even in a standard raid composition the effect is substantial
What is the DPS trade off for the Paladin in question?
What is the DPS trade off for the Hunter in question?
How popular / Unpopular are pets in Raid from Hunters that actually know how to manage their pet properly? Is this acceptable? I had no issues, my guild never gave me grief, but I heard horror stories from other guilds and hunters who had due to piss poor pet management. Yup, its part of playing the class and should have NEVER been made autopilot like it is now on Leg, I mean BFA.
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Answer? it would depend on your raid. Here is some dummy numbers used to respond to another post for your perusal:
Obviously, one isnāt going to have ~20 mages in a raid, but I hope this helps even a little. It is really easy from here to fraction it out to fit the numbers you think work for your raid.
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I realize this is mainly an exercise to prove rets are raid viable, but the calculations shouldnāt be about maximizing the total DPS of the nightfall wielding slot (where rets will look comparatively good) itās about maximizing raid dps full stop(this is where hunters or an off-tank will shine more brightly).
Your raid will need tranq shot, you will need a variable number of tanks for different fights, you donāt strictly need ret dps for anything. Thatās the main reason in my mind that hunters and ot warriors are the preferred source of nightfall uptime.
That said in the practical situation of composing your raid I think youāre much more likely to find a very eager nightfall wielding ret to hop aboard.