10/05/2018 03:51 PMPosted by
Tyzska
So let me get this straight, an enhancement shaman swinging nightfall, along with improved windfury/strength/air totems also totem twisting effectively would still not be worth bringing to a raid spot as a dps?
Also if you plan on swinging nightfall you would be better off going troll over orc? Even with the axe specialization?
Based on Windfury bonus attacks not triggering procs...it doesn't look good for Enhancement based on the numbers that came out of our testing.
I always thought that flametongue weapon would proc on hit effects. Is this not the case? Google isn't giving me answers so I thought I would ask.
Regardless, an enhancement shaman properly twisting WFT and Tranquil Air Totem doesn't even need Nightfall to pull good buff numbers. Tranquil Air alone Allows the group's dps to increase by up to 25%. If your melee are pulling 800 each, 800 of the 3200 dps is because of the shaman's presence. Add WF on top of that and it really is because of the shaman's contribution. An Ele or Resto shaman aren't going to want the mana expenditure simply because it neuters their role.
Paladins get shafted because of the raid wide nature of their good buffs.
10/06/2018 09:34 PMPosted by
Zeliek
Paladins get shafted because of the raid wide nature of their good buffs.
Yes and no; just depends on how you look at it.
@Skjaldbjorn
Here is me solo swinging Nightfall in a continuously moving fight but getting 50% debuff uptime:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/498617670493667330/nexus_grobulus_nightfall_uptime.jpg
78 seconds of debuff uptime in a 2:35 min fight
10/04/2018 12:56 AMPosted by
Telumia
If the argument is ret vs fury with nightfall for the last spot in the raid, should the math not be a straight comparison Ret:NF vs Fury:NF instead of (Ret:geared - Ret:NF) vs (Fury:geared - Fury:NF)? The dps loss between Fury and Fury-nightfall wouldn't exist if the Fury isn't in the raid anyway.
Don't give Nightfall to a Fury Warrior in the first place because:
1. It will piss them off
2. The greater debuff uptime is only ~5-10%
2. It will neuter their own personal DPS in the process
Its the last raid spot, so he can either be in the raid as the greater net dps or sit on the bench. We should be looking at Net Dps along with other benefits and not the amount that is neutered. Of course, If you are already bringing both a ret and fury, you hand it to the ret.
Really if the net dps comes out as Fury>Fury:NF>Ret:NF>Ret, We could just kick the nightfall off to the OTs/Hunter.
I think you all forget the Hunter brings Trueshot Aura as well. Its like actually significantly better.
Nightfall is mostly for Prot Warriors. If you're not tanking something, you're Nightfalling. You can also justify an Arms Warrior with it, especially when Blood Frenzy is available.
Nightfall proc uptime:
1. Melee Hunter (by about 5-10% over #2)
2. Ret Paladin
3. OT Warrior
Individual DPS on their own:
1. Ret Paladin (by a large margin over #2)
2. Melee Hunter
3. OT Warrior
This is a pretty old concept, but you've got it about right. Melee hunter is widely considered the best user of Nightfall (for uptime), with ret pally, OT warrior, and enhancement shammie almost all exactly tied for 2nd. Nightfall uptime is about all that really matters in this regards as DPS is pretty average for all of these classes anyway (though done right a melee hunter can kick some !@#). Another benefit to having hunters of course is the wolf raid buff.
11/08/2018 01:54 PMPosted by
Cysmite
I think you all forget the Hunter brings Trueshot Aura as well. Its like actually significantly better.
sup cysthen - how's it going dude?
TSA is a given in everything I've theorycrafted - lol @ Survival Hunters stacking their +AGI talent to squeeze out a little more personal DPS compared to providing TSA to the group
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Nightfall proc uptime:
1. Melee Hunter (by about 5-10% over #2)
2. Ret Paladin
3. OT Warrior
Individual DPS on their own:
1. Ret Paladin (by a large margin over #2)
2. Melee Hunter
3. OT Warrior
This is a pretty old concept, but you've got it about right. Melee hunter is widely considered the best user of Nightfall (for uptime), with ret pally, OT warrior, and enhancement shammie almost all exactly tied for 2nd. Nightfall uptime is about all that really matters in this regards as DPS is pretty average for all of these classes anyway (though done right a melee hunter can kick some !@#). Another benefit to having hunters of course is the wolf raid buff.
it's all relative as the Melee Hunter on his own only does 1/3 to 1/2 of my DPS for only a few more seconds of debuff uptime.
that being said, the best situation is to have ALL THREE people swing Nightfall to maximize your debuff uptime as much as possible:
Ret Paladin + Melee Hunter + OT Warrior = you could maintain ~70-80% debuff uptime
I recently leveled to 1-60 using a purely survival melee hunter build, it was a blast actually lol. The play style is completely different from your usual leveling spec though.
I basically used any high DPS pet I could find, spec'd in deterrence, deflection for parry % and improved aspect of the monkey, and took taunt off my pet. I'd tank most fights, laying a trap and pulling with serpent sting then waiting as they got into melee range and switching to melee only. Pet would taunt off only if I needed, which wasn't often - avoidance was usually around ~23% lol. Wasn't necessarily optimal speed wise, but damage was through the roof, it was very mana efficient, and no one could ever gank me unless they were +10 levels higher.
Speccing out immolation trap was key, its a very overlooked skill and the damage/mana ratio is incredible.
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I recently leveled to 1-60 using a purely survival melee hunter build, it was a blast actually lol. The play style is completely different from your usual leveling spec though.
I basically used any high DPS pet I could find, spec'd in deterrence, deflection for parry % and improved aspect of the monkey, and took taunt off my pet. I'd tank most fights, laying a trap and pulling with serpent sting then waiting as they got into melee range and switching to melee only. Pet would taunt off only if I needed, which wasn't often - avoidance was usually around ~23% lol. Wasn't necessarily optimal speed wise, but damage was through the roof, it was very mana efficient, and no one could ever gank me unless they were +10 levels higher.
Speccing out immolation trap was key, its a very overlooked skill and the damage/mana ratio is incredible.
For solo play and levelling, Survival is fine to spec but in raids any Hunter showing up as Survival isn't providing the complete level of support that is required.
Case in point is the fact that the best OVERALL use of a Retribution Paladin is in either the MT or Warlock group with him wearing 8/8 Tier 1 for AoE group heals while swinging Nightfall.
11/08/2018 01:54 PMPosted by
Cysmite
I think you all forget the Hunter brings Trueshot Aura as well. Its like actually significantly better.
sup cysthen - how's it going dude?
TSA is a given in everything I've theorycrafted - lol @ Survival Hunters stacking their +AGI talent to squeeze out a little more personal DPS compared to providing TSA to the group
<span class="truncated">...</span>
This is a pretty old concept, but you've got it about right. Melee hunter is widely considered the best user of Nightfall (for uptime), with ret pally, OT warrior, and enhancement shammie almost all exactly tied for 2nd. Nightfall uptime is about all that really matters in this regards as DPS is pretty average for all of these classes anyway (though done right a melee hunter can kick some !@#). Another benefit to having hunters of course is the wolf raid buff.
it's all relative as the Melee Hunter on his own only does 1/3 to 1/2 of my DPS for only a few more seconds of debuff uptime.
that being said, the best situation is to have ALL THREE people swing Nightfall to maximize your debuff uptime as much as possible:
Ret Paladin + Melee Hunter + OT Warrior = you could maintain ~70-80% debuff uptime
Yeah... the agile surv hunters always bugged me on my hunter.
You could only do that if you had enough hunters for TSA on every physical damage group and more...
And then, why on earth would you have that many hunters?
Yea totally, melee survival is definitively not a raiding spec. Still, it checks off the boxes for PVP and PVE quite nicely, certainly better than one would think. The shock that a ganking warrior must experience when you pull out your daggers and go ham on him is priceless.
It is probably the most viable "for fun" build of 'em all, though feel free to correct me if there is something I've missed - I'm always looking for ways to make crazy builds viable!
Oh God, Theloras found the classic forums. Watch out blizz devs!
Such great work here! Know this is an older thread but definitely valuable for people who donât know / havenât thought of this as an option for raiding.
unfortunately not, because our test results showed that Enhancement is actually the worst of all classes/specs that can swing Nightfall
this is due to the fact that Blizzard nerfed Windfury to NOT trigger procs over the course of Vanilla - which leaves them with only auto attack and Stormstrike (20 sec cd) to be able to trigger Nightfall debuff
this leaves them at ~25% total uptime
Iâm not going to read through 236 posts because Iâm at work, but from my memory the premise that SoR/JoR procs melee effects is wrong.
SoR/JoR damage should scale with spell power and rank only, and their hits do NOT count as melee, hence can not proc melee trinkets. Crits are 1.5x
SoC scales off ap and possibly sp (canât remember), and JoC sp only. Both go off melee crit, and JoC procs melee trinkets (donât believe SoC does though, although I think it can proc judgements of wisdom/light. SoC can proc once during a reckoning burst, but SoR does off each hit.
I donât know how most private servers coded it but pretty sure theyâre wrong. This comes as someone that was enthusiastic about ret in vanilla and may pick it back up for classic.
Oh, also SoR canât proc judgement of wisdom/light. I havenât done the math or am not 100 percent sure on whether SoC (double procs on attack and seal proc), or SoTC would regen mana/hp faster. Probably SoC for short term with some luck and sacrificing less damage, or SoTC for longer periods.
yes SoR/JoR does trigger procs in Vanilla - this was specifically changed by Blizzard during the 1.9 patch:
Seal of Righteousness - Now does holy damage on every swing. It can now proc correctly as well. The Judgement effect has been renamed âJudgement of Righteousnessâ to differentiate it from the Seal damage in the combat log.
Judgement of Righteousness - The damage of this judgement was increased significantly. This judgement can now trigger procs. The bonus from spell damage items has been increased slightly.
https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.9.0
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Fair enough, memory isnât perfect.