Nightfall - Melee Hunter vs Ret Paladin

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
201
10/04/2018 04:41 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn
A) Thaddius buffs dps. 923/954 isn't that impressive when look at the dps everyone else is doing. Top dps was 1734/1546 (wth happened to the mages in that second one?)

B) Between the overhealing and how judgement of light works, I would wager that the only thing you actually accomplished there was padding the healers overhealing.

C) 2 tanks for stalagg and feugen, but only 1 needed for Thaddius. Judging by the low dps for every fight in the raid, I am going to guess that Nikiita, Drp, and Yamille are all tanks. If your guild stands by the Annihilator/Nightfall for OTs, you should have 2 OTs applying the debuff. That would make your uptime contribution negligible.

One last note, I looked at the other fights on those raid IDs. Your dps and healing was abysmal for all of them.


Wearing 8/8 Tier 1 while swinging Nightfall with SoR/JoR while being in the WARLOCK group will do that genius.

It's a max support setup/build - I am not Esfand.

Never mind the fact that those raids/fights were literally from over a year ago when Naxx had just opened on Anathema. That being said, if I'm so bad, what does it say about the pure DPS classes that I beat multiple times on different bosses?

BTW, you never answered my question - how many OT Prot Warriors do you know who swing Nightfall on Patchwerk?

Here's more recent data but for Loatheb and me wearing 8/8 Tier 1 with Nightfall in the Warlock group but without putting up Judgement of Light:

536235 (1810.1/s)
1 Sweetiepuff (72832) 245.8/s (46196) 155.9/s 17.7%
2 Retfavre (62992) 212.6/s (22615) 76.3/s 12.7%
3 Theoloras (38433) 129.7/s (8714) 29.4/s 7.0%
4 Regginaladin (23063) 77.8/s (7301) 24.6/s 4.5%
5 Lurue (18671) 63/s (0) 0/s 2.8%

38433 (129.8/s)
1 Healing Circle (35326) 119.3/s (8714) 29.4/s 93.4%
2 First Aid (HoT) (2000) 6.8/s (0) 0/s 4.2%
3 Whipper Root Tuber (1107) 3.7/s (0) 0/s 2.3%

https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=16082&exp=0
202
10/04/2018 04:55 PMPosted by Theloras

Never mind the fact that those raids/fights were literally from over a year ago when Naxx had just opened on Anathema. That being said, if I'm so bad, what does it say about the pure DPS classes that I beat multiple times on different bosses?


That they are also being carried?

This time I really am done. You continue to cherry pick encounters that make you look good to try and justify your cause. It's like you don't realize that I can look at the rest of the fights in which you perform terribly. Which has kinda been my point all along. There may be a few encounters in which your shenanigans can be seen as competitive. However, for the vast majority of the content, ret and dedicated NF swingers are a complete and utter hindrance on the raid.
203
10/04/2018 05:36 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn
You continue to cherry pick encounters that make you look good to try and justify your cause


Not to nit pick or anything, but every class is not universally "good" at every encounter no matter how hard they may wish it in Classic WoW.

Some classes are incredibly potent in certain fights while totally anemic on others. That's just the nature of Vanilla WoW, and while his numbers may be cherry picked it does not really matter because its those fights where he's doing fantastic that does indeed justify that class build as legitimate.

That same class could be dead last crap on another fight, just like one of the other "Great" DPS could be crap on one of the ones he's "killing it".

Additionally there are some really good things that retribution paladin do, that I as a Holy paladin would rather not do.

Standing in the melee range of a raid boss to execute judgement; this is something I would rather a ret paladin do.

Throwing Blessing of Freedom / Protection / sacrifice / retribution aura in a tank group / melee group / etc.

There are a lot of these things that when delegated out to other builds of paladin makes my job healing the tanks much much more enjoyable because most of my globals are full while a retribution paladin has many to spare.

As far as maximizing a raid group, there's plenty of room for a retribution paladin, heck maybe even 2.

When you look at a evenly distributed raid roster with 5 of each class for your faction; do you really need 15 healers? I can't think of a time when you do, and even if you did; you would only do so because you have either A: the worst healers ever or B: the worst tank and raid group ever.

Neither of those is fun in my world, so I would rather play with whom-ever so long as they know the encounters and maximize the use of their character meaning using those "other than DPS" abilities that their class has that indeed sets them apart from others in raid.

That's why I find no fault in DPS build paladin, because seriously.. What warrior other than a fury 2 hand build is going to use all the 2 hand melee drops?? There are numerous, and you don't bring that many warriors, nor do you have any use for all that fury warrior plate loot drops.. So why not just get one or two paladin to use that stuff and have them contribute in both ways? As I said before they have quite a few globals to spare, so yeah.. Not a bad situation if you ask a healer (ME).

Thanks.
204
10/04/2018 05:36 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn
10/04/2018 04:55 PMPosted by Theloras

Never mind the fact that those raids/fights were literally from over a year ago when Naxx had just opened on Anathema. That being said, if I'm so bad, what does it say about the pure DPS classes that I beat multiple times on different bosses?


That they are also being carried?

This time I really am done. You continue to cherry pick encounters that make you look good to try and justify your cause. It's like you don't realize that I can look at the rest of the fights in which you perform terribly. Which has kinda been my point all along. There may be a few encounters in which your shenanigans can be seen as competitive. However, for the vast majority of the content, ret and dedicated NF swingers are a complete and utter hindrance on the raid.


Tell that to the PURE DPS that I beat lol

You also LIED through your teeth bro:

"You have said that a tank will provide 35% uptime. You say you can provide 40% uptime. That does not mean combined you will attain 75% uptime." - Skjaldbjorn

I'll copy/paste what I wrote in this post again:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20761848140?page=9#post-171

A Melee Hunter has ~45% debuff uptime based on Keftenk's testing.

A Melee Hunter + Me reached ~60% total debuff uptime on multiple Naxx bosses in real world live server testing.

It is my estimate that a Melee Hunter + Retribution Paladin + OT Prot Warrior could hit ~75% total debuff uptime but have yet to test that theory.
205
10/04/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Theloras


You also LIED through your teeth bro:


I didn't lie, you just fail at reading comprehension.

I'll break it down slow for you, try to keep up.

YOU said, OTs provide 35%.
YOU said, you can provide 40%.
YOU calculate 40% of the uptime as YOUR contribution to raid DPS to justify a raid spot.

I used 75% as an example, not once did I say that you said you got 75%. What I said, and listen here, was that if an OT(35%), and Ret(40%) were swinging NF, it would not be 35=40+75% uptime. The point I was making is that if someone in the raid is already providing 35%, adding an additional player that is capable of 40%, would not add 40% more uptime.

10/04/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Theloras
Tell that to the PURE DPS that I beat lol


Uhm, i did. Here are the other fights you DPSd in from one the raids you listed above.

Maexxna
You and the 7 dps under you (3 of which died over halfway through the fight) did just 69 more dps then the 3 top dps.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=7

Faerlina
You and the 5 dps under you did (one of which died 6sec in) just 98 more dps than the top 2 dps.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=5

Anub'Rekhan
You and the 2 dps under you did 91 dps less than the top 1 dps.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=4

Gluth
You and the 5 dps under you did 173 more dps than the top 2 dps.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=2

Grobbulus
You and the 2 dps under you(one of which died 30sec in) did 254 dps less than the top 1 dps.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=1

Patchwerk
You and the 2 dps under you did 268 dps more than the top 1 dps, or 461 dps less than the top 2 dps.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=0

Thaddius
You and the 10 dps under you (3 of which died at various points) did 805dps more than the top 3, but 496dps less than the top 4.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=3

Noth
I'm guessing you healed, although it's difficult to tell. You and the two healers under you only contributed .7% of the damage for the fight, and you alone contributed only 3% of the efficient healing. Oh, and none of you died, so....
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=9
206
"You have said that a tank will provide 35% uptime. You say you can provide 40% uptime. That does not mean combined you will attain 75% uptime." - Skjaldbjorn

vs

It is my estimate that a Melee Hunter + Retribution Paladin + OT Prot Warrior could hit ~75% total debuff uptime but have yet to test that theory. - Me

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20761848140?page=9#post-171

BTW, you still haven't answered my question after repeatedly asking you - how many OT Prot Warriors do you know who swing Nightfall on Patchwerk?
207
Man this argument is still going ?
208
10/04/2018 07:30 PMPosted by FellĂ­na
Man this argument is still going ?


I'm still waiting on him to introduce me to his OT Prot Warrior who swings Nightfall on Patchwerk, despite repeated requests...

Never mind the fact that having a Shadow Priest is universally welcome in raids for Shadow Weaving to boost Warlock DPS right?

But their personal DPS is WORSE than Retribution's and they only boost 3-4 Warlocks at best whereas a Retribution Paladin swinging Nightfall boosts ALL Magic damage on average by 6% total over the course of an entire fight (based on 40% uptime with SoR/JoR).

And in order for that same Shadow Priest to actually do anything near respectable DPS and support, they eat up 3-4 debuff slots in the process:

- Shadow Word Pain
- Shadow Weaving
- Vampiric Embrace
- Mindflay

If you limit their debuff to only Shadow Weaving, then their personal DPS goes down the toilet, yet they have not received anywhere near the level of hatred and trolling that Ret has.
209
10/04/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Theloras
10/04/2018 07:30 PMPosted by FellĂ­na
Man this argument is still going ?


I'm still waiting on him to introduce me to his OT Prot Warrior who swings Nightfall on Patchwerk, despite repeated requests...


Who cares?

Run your guild your way he'll run it his way.
210
10/04/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Theloras
I'm still waiting on him to introduce me to his OT Prot Warrior who swings Nightfall on Patchwerk, despite repeated requests...

Never mind the fact that having a Shadow Priest is universally welcome in raids for Shadow Weaving to boost Warlock DPS right?

Let it go. He is hung up in the thinking that you and the hunter are both swinging NF constantly instead of the test that you mentioned. Besides Shadow Priest is way more useless than a Ret simply because the DPS is crap and a healing priest loses minimally just to use R1 mindflay every 15 sec.
211
just for !@#$s and giggles have you tried a prot pally with NF? the reason i ask is they bring different buffs than ret and you wouldnt have them MT a boss unless everyone else that can taunt is dead.
212
10/04/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Fatpattys
just for !@#$s and giggles have you tried a prot pally with NF? the reason i ask is they bring different buffs than ret and you wouldnt have them MT a boss unless everyone else that can taunt is dead.


Yes, originally I was a modified RECK spec that grabbed Blessing of Sanctuary for the raid while I would also swing Nightfall.

Was unkillable in PvP and also an amazing AoE tank as well in dungeons and our raids - 11/26/14 - http://classicdb.ch/?talent#sE0zZVGt0szxZVbhkb

My buddy and guildmate Smiter was deep Ret and the two of us would put up Judgement of the Crusader and Judgement of Wisdom on every mob/boss in our raids - was a lot of fun.

Alas, the guild died after we cleared AQ40 a year and a half ago when the raiding scene on Anathema was getting low - even with Naxxramas coming shortly thereafter, there were only a couple raiding guilds left who continued on.
213
So let me get this straight, an enhancement shaman swinging nightfall, along with improved windfury/strength/air totems also totem twisting effectively would still not be worth bringing to a raid spot as a dps?

Also if you plan on swinging nightfall you would be better off going troll over orc? Even with the axe specialization?
214
10/05/2018 03:51 PMPosted by Tyzska
So let me get this straight, an enhancement shaman swinging nightfall, along with improved windfury/strength/air totems also totem twisting effectively would still not be worth bringing to a raid spot as a dps?

Also if you plan on swinging nightfall you would be better off going troll over orc? Even with the axe specialization?


Overall, if you have the DPS to kill a boss bringing a lower dps and having them buff other DPS is not going to hurt as long as the DPS differnce is going to make up for the lower damage. At the same time the, lower dps needs to be way more prepared in general as the issues they usually have other issues as to whats holding them back (see mana usually or bad balance).

Giving that person a item that will lower there dps again but also raies the DPS of other group may be worth it. To me it would need to cover the difference in lost damage from the person using the item as a loss of DPS .

For example if you could pull top 10 with a decent weapon but your put on this other and your just above healers and tanks. The people you buffed better make up that difference. Personally, i would have prefered more classes that were based around buffs and debuffs but thats not for WoW.
215
Was a raiding lock on Nost, Ely, LH (guild died once naxx hit and enough of us were done with the private server BS). Once patch 1.6 hit and we had the 16 debuff slots - shadow weaving and NF was simply pure love :). We ran 1 shadow priest (guild leader so ya it was allowed), 5 locks and a butt-ton of mages so ya - we loved NF.

We were Alliance but only had a single ret in the raid and they swung that NF and tossed 15min buffs... Never considered a mele hunter but hey - I could see our group giving it a shot if it made sense. One of the OT's would use their NF on single tank fights to give us casters even more love and he even would swap it in/out other times.

As far as a boring rotation - well my lock rotation was:
SB SB SB SB SB SB ...... with the double life tap as needed and refreshing a curse if needed. Boring - yeah. Pressing that 1 key over and over... But I did enjoy tanking twins - +8.5kHP at 315SR - and there instead of SB you spammed SP (searing pain).

In any case, I find this just about the most enjoyable thread but was looking for more blood so take it up a few notches :)
216
10/06/2018 12:50 AMPosted by Freshmeatha
Was a raiding lock on Nost, Ely, LH (guild died once naxx hit and enough of us were done with the private server BS). Once patch 1.6 hit and we had the 16 debuff slots - shadow weaving and NF was simply pure love :). We ran 1 shadow priest (guild leader so ya it was allowed), 5 locks and a butt-ton of mages so ya - we loved NF.

We were Alliance but only had a single ret in the raid and they swung that NF and tossed 15min buffs... Never considered a mele hunter but hey - I could see our group giving it a shot if it made sense. One of the OT's would use their NF on single tank fights to give us casters even more love and he even would swap it in/out other times.

As far as a boring rotation - well my lock rotation was:
SB SB SB SB SB SB ...... with the double life tap as needed and refreshing a curse if needed. Boring - yeah. Pressing that 1 key over and over... But I did enjoy tanking twins - +8.5kHP at 315SR - and there instead of SB you spammed SP (searing pain).

In any case, I find this just about the most enjoyable thread but was looking for more blood so take it up a few notches :)


^^^THIS^^^
217
10/05/2018 03:51 PMPosted by Tyzska
So let me get this straight, an enhancement shaman swinging nightfall, along with improved windfury/strength/air totems also totem twisting effectively would still not be worth bringing to a raid spot as a dps?

Also if you plan on swinging nightfall you would be better off going troll over orc? Even with the axe specialization?


Based on Windfury bonus attacks not triggering procs...it doesn't look good for Enhancement based on the numbers that came out of our testing.
218
10/06/2018 12:50 AMPosted by Freshmeatha
Was a raiding lock on Nost, Ely, LH (guild died once naxx hit and enough of us were done with the private server BS). Once patch 1.6 hit and we had the 16 debuff slots - shadow weaving and NF was simply pure love :). We ran 1 shadow priest (guild leader so ya it was allowed), 5 locks and a butt-ton of mages so ya - we loved NF.

We were Alliance but only had a single ret in the raid and they swung that NF and tossed 15min buffs... Never considered a mele hunter but hey - I could see our group giving it a shot if it made sense. One of the OT's would use their NF on single tank fights to give us casters even more love and he even would swap it in/out other times.

As far as a boring rotation - well my lock rotation was:
SB SB SB SB SB SB ...... with the double life tap as needed and refreshing a curse if needed. Boring - yeah. Pressing that 1 key over and over... But I did enjoy tanking twins - +8.5kHP at 315SR - and there instead of SB you spammed SP (searing pain).

In any case, I find this just about the most enjoyable thread but was looking for more blood so take it up a few notches :)


Ok wise guy you asked for it..

STOP HIM, SOME ONE STOP HIM HE'S NOT MIN-MAXING, STOP HIM!
219
Nice!.

And I failed to mention that we run 2 hunters. Back in MC - tranq and they had decent dps but by mid BWL and into AQ40 they had four jobs - tranq in those cases it was needed (not many), pulling trash to tanks, kiting trash mobs until the raid was ready to kill them, and be on loose add control and bring them back to the tanks. Early MC example (until we outgeared it) was a double firelord pack. They got down this double pull - slightly staggered - FD trick so one would always reset, so just had one. In early MC made the diff between easy fire spaws and a mess. Later a perfect example was the big huge guys before Chromag (and three more before Ebonroc I think). These were the ones that had a single spell vulnerability and hit the tank freaking hard. Raid would kill skull and X (two tanks) - two OT's there just in case heals failed to keep them up - square was kited until X was far enough that it would die right when square came back. No one really cared what their dps was as long as they could do the add control. Think all of the skeletons in NEF at 25% - they each tossed fire explosive trap to get aggro on that entire group, kited their group of 20 to the kill spot where a frost trap make it easy to group them, frost nova to stop them, and mages/locks went to town on them. So easy. Having to do that without the huntards - doable but more messy.

That said, we never got to experience the patchwork dps check so maybe on that fight it would have been a different story. So if that was an issue, just bring one of their mage alts :)

I'll def keep in mind the mele hunter idea when we all start enjoying classic and we hit up BWL.
220
Nice!.

And I failed to mention that we run 2 hunters. Back in MC - tranq and they had decent dps but by mid BWL and into AQ40 they had four jobs - tranq in those cases it was needed (not many), pulling trash to tanks, kiting trash mobs until the raid was ready to kill them, and be on loose add control and bring them back to the tanks. Early MC example (until we outgeared it) was a double firelord pack. They got down this double pull - slightly staggered - FD trick so one would always reset, so just had one. In early MC made the diff between easy fire spaws and a mess. Later a perfect example was the big huge guys before Chromag (and three more before Ebonroc I think). These were the ones that had a single spell vulnerability and hit the tank freaking hard. Raid would kill skull and X (two tanks) - two OT's there just in case heals failed to keep them up - square was kited until X was far enough that it would die right when square came back. No one really cared what their dps was as long as they could do the add control. Think all of the skeletons in NEF at 25% - they each tossed fire explosive trap to get aggro on that entire group, kited their group of 20 to the kill spot where a frost trap make it easy to group them, frost nova to stop them, and mages/locks went to town on them. So easy. Having to do that without the huntards - doable but more messy.

That said, we never got to experience the patchwork dps check so maybe on that fight it would have been a different story. So if that was an issue, just bring one of their mage alts :)

I'll def keep in mind the mele hunter idea when we all start enjoying classic and we hit up BWL.


please post screenshots of your progress if you do!

:)