Nightfall - Melee Hunter vs Ret Paladin

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
181
10/02/2018 10:51 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn
I was using your math. You are the one that said that a tank is already providing 30%. The tank is the alpha and omega. He was in the raid before you, he will be in the raid after you. The only raid DPS buff you can claim is what you provide beyond what he is already providing. I calculated your dps and dps contribution based on the damage meter you linked using only the uptime that you are adding to the raid beyond what the tank has already provided.

Statistically speaking, having the tank provide a flat 30% is a fallacy. You aren't even bothering to take into account the "unlucky" proc protection having a second hitter. That alone should be enough to evenly divide the ~52% uptime combined when having the warrior swinging NF (flat difference would make it 846 dps and split difference would be around 914). The secondary tank would still be better off being fury tank with dps gear when not tanking as they can push the higher numbers without NF which would push overall raid dps even higher.

@Theloras, is that 40% NF uptime including SotC swapping? Mathematically speaking, if it isn't you could increase your uptime to approximately 45% by a 2:3 swing rotation. Probably not worth it if you aren't the sole swinger, but if you are you could possibly down rank and see a dps increase
182
09/30/2018 02:58 PMPosted by Härländ
09/30/2018 02:27 PMPosted by Apoxey
toggle on your autoshot and walk away,


Auto shoot and moving do not work in Vanilla, you're thinking modern wow here.

This is why hunters in vanilla mastered the stutter-step.


nah youre just misunderstanding. why would you toggle on auto shoot then walk away from the boss? it makes no sense.

toggle on auto shot then walk away from your pc.
183
I've never said a tank could provide 30%. That came from Theloras. The point I'm making is that if you already have an OT providing 30%, and you bring someone else that ups it to 50%, it doesn't matter that they can provide 40% on their own. They are only adding 20% uptime, and can't take credit for any more than that.

Unlucky procs have nothing to do with how it is split. 30% is 30%, if he says that's what they can do, while also maintaining the other debuff, I assume luck, or the lack thereof, is factored in already.
184
I played a paladin back in retail vanilla. When I made the character, I had no idea I was going to be pigeonholed into healing/buffing at max level. Nowhere was I told that. Even before I made the character, I read through the manual while excitedly waiting for the game to finish installing, and the manual gave me the impression that the paladin is a tough class geared towards protecting allies and dealing physical damage. I had no idea I was going to be spamming five minute long buffs and standing behind in a dress.

So of course I was upset about it, like so many other paladins were, at the time. We all laughed at the screencap of that !@#$%^-*!ion post and howled in anger when Chilton (Was it him? It's been so long and I can't be bothered to fact check.) called us a noob class. And of course I was happy when TBC revamp made protection a pretty viable spec for paladins, and when WotLK later made retribution a desirable spec too. If you asked 2008 me if I wanted 2005 paladins to be like 2008 paladins of course I would have said hell yeah, and I'm absolutely certain 99.9999999% of people who played a paladin between 2004 and 2008 would say the same thing.

That being said, most people, I assume, want Classic to emulate vanilla WoW and stay truthful to it as much as possible. No changes unless absolutely necessary (bugs, etc.). This means that for better or for worse, paladins in Classic will be the same as the paladins in retail vanilla were, that is to say, a buffer/healer class. Sure, you could say "oh, but you can get a Nightfall and try to find a guild to allow you to raid as ret" or "you can get that tanking set from Scholomance and be able to tank dungeons" but the truth is those builds are very subpar and situational and you're going to have to put in way more effort than a normal player would just to play your desired role as a paladin. I don't get it, why would you waste your time and effort on it? What's the point?

I personally want to be a tank, so this time around, when Classic comes out, I'll be rolling a warrior.
185
10/02/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Theloras
<span class="truncated">...</span>

yeah, im aware of that it just seems too boring to actually do. i'll probably be rolling a horde hunter and looking for some easy raid drops early on but i dont know if i could bring myself to do that more than one night or so.

should be easier to find a shaman to do it


Just remember that Enhancement Shaman have the worst debuff uptime of any class/spec that can swing Nightfall - due to the fact that Windfury CANNOT trigger procs in Vanilla.

With only auto-attack and Stormstrike (20 sec cd), Enhancement ends up at ~25% uptime.


they would have to promise me drops to do this as a horde hunter, this would get incredibly boring week after week. a shaman shouldn't mind doing it, while i doubt many warriors will be lining up for the job

this min maxing math is interesting, but the hunter needs to have some semblance of fun while playing
186
...

Just remember that Enhancement Shaman have the worst debuff uptime of any class/spec that can swing Nightfall - due to the fact that Windfury CANNOT trigger procs in Vanilla.

With only auto-attack and Stormstrike (20 sec cd), Enhancement ends up at ~25% uptime.


they would have to promise me drops to do this as a horde hunter, this would get incredibly boring week after week. a shaman shouldn't mind doing it, while i doubt many warriors will be lining up for the job

this min maxing math is interesting, but the hunter needs to have some semblance of fun while playing


What drops are you getting that are worth the 3-6 hours of spamming wingclip? I would think you burn out more hunters than any other guild. Not that hunters are super interesting raiding but man.
187
seal of command + judgement of command and other various procs help trigger the proc incase no one considered them
188
10/02/2018 10:51 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn
I was using your math. You are the one that said that a tank is already providing 30%. The tank is the alpha and omega. He was in the raid before you, he will be in the raid after you. The only raid DPS buff you can claim is what you provide beyond what he is already providing. I calculated your dps and dps contribution based on the damage meter you linked using only the uptime that you are adding to the raid beyond what the tank has already provided.


Know any OT Prot Warriors swinging Nightfall on Patchwerk?

Cuz I sure don't...

You are again conflating multiple different posts and data points and making outright false allegations against me:

"You have said that a tank will provide 35% uptime. You say you can provide 40% uptime. That does not mean combined you will attain 75% uptime."

Compared to what I actually said:

It is my estimate that a Melee Hunter + Retribution Paladin + OT Prot Warrior could hit ~75% total debuff uptime but have yet to test that theory.

Some takeaway points for you:

1. The Prot Warrior cannot swing Nightfall on Patchwerk cuz they're tanking
2. I wasn't even in the Coalition raid - I was merely inferring at the time
3. IIRC they didn't use Nightfall at all as they were uber min/max and controlled debuff slots like tyrants
4. My top DPS parse on Patchwerk with world buffs and Nightfall is much higher:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/484066664506458113/2x_Nightfall_PW.jpg
5. With BiS forever gear upgrades, I could push that to 700+ while still maintaining great debuff uptime
189
10/03/2018 01:18 AMPosted by Zeliek
10/02/2018 10:51 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn
I was using your math. You are the one that said that a tank is already providing 30%. The tank is the alpha and omega. He was in the raid before you, he will be in the raid after you. The only raid DPS buff you can claim is what you provide beyond what he is already providing. I calculated your dps and dps contribution based on the damage meter you linked using only the uptime that you are adding to the raid beyond what the tank has already provided.

Statistically speaking, having the tank provide a flat 30% is a fallacy. You aren't even bothering to take into account the "unlucky" proc protection having a second hitter. That alone should be enough to evenly divide the ~52% uptime combined when having the warrior swinging NF (flat difference would make it 846 dps and split difference would be around 914). The secondary tank would still be better off being fury tank with dps gear when not tanking as they can push the higher numbers without NF which would push overall raid dps even higher.

@Theloras, is that 40% NF uptime including SotC swapping? Mathematically speaking, if it isn't you could increase your uptime to approximately 45% by a 2:3 swing rotation. Probably not worth it if you aren't the sole swinger, but if you are you could possibly down rank and see a dps increase


Do you mean Seal Twisting?

If so, then no - I don't Seal Twist as I couldn't get it to work back on Elysium and I haven't bothered trying on LH.

My ~40% debuff uptime is the result of me using Seal/Judgement of Righteousness as SoR goes off on every swing and both SoR and JoR can trigger procs in Vanilla after the 1.9 Paladin patch:

Seal of Righteousness - Now does holy damage on every swing. It can now proc correctly as well. The Judgement effect has been renamed "Judgement of Righteousness" to differentiate it from the Seal damage in the combat log.

Judgement of Righteousness - The damage of this judgement was increased significantly. This judgement can now trigger procs. The bonus from spell damage items has been increased slightly.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.9.0

Compared to Seal of Command which is merely "Chance on Hit"

So the strategy is then to stack as much +spell damage as possible, use SoR/JoR and swing Nightfall.
190
10/03/2018 02:09 AMPosted by Skjaldbjorn
I've never said a tank could provide 30%. That came from Theloras. The point I'm making is that if you already have an OT providing 30%, and you bring someone else that ups it to 50%, it doesn't matter that they can provide 40% on their own. They are only adding 20% uptime, and can't take credit for any more than that.

Unlucky procs have nothing to do with how it is split. 30% is 30%, if he says that's what they can do, while also maintaining the other debuff, I assume luck, or the lack thereof, is factored in already.


I have already emphatically stated that there will be some overlap if more than one person swings Nightfall and procs are generated with the debuff already up.

This is shown from live server boss fights with a Melee Hunter + Me both swinging Nightfall on Patchwerk, Loatheb and Thaddius.

We had a combined proc rate of ~55-60% debuff uptime ON AVERAGE in those situations.
191
10/03/2018 04:53 AMPosted by Nurdan
I played a paladin back in retail vanilla. When I made the character, I had no idea I was going to be pigeonholed into healing/buffing at max level. Nowhere was I told that. Even before I made the character, I read through the manual while excitedly waiting for the game to finish installing, and the manual gave me the impression that the paladin is a tough class geared towards protecting allies and dealing physical damage. I had no idea I was going to be spamming five minute long buffs and standing behind in a dress.

So of course I was upset about it, like so many other paladins were, at the time. We all laughed at the screencap of that !@#$%^-*!ion post and howled in anger when Chilton (Was it him? It's been so long and I can't be bothered to fact check.) called us a noob class. And of course I was happy when TBC revamp made protection a pretty viable spec for paladins, and when WotLK later made retribution a desirable spec too. If you asked 2008 me if I wanted 2005 paladins to be like 2008 paladins of course I would have said hell yeah, and I'm absolutely certain 99.9999999% of people who played a paladin between 2004 and 2008 would say the same thing.

That being said, most people, I assume, want Classic to emulate vanilla WoW and stay truthful to it as much as possible. No changes unless absolutely necessary (bugs, etc.). This means that for better or for worse, paladins in Classic will be the same as the paladins in retail vanilla were, that is to say, a buffer/healer class. Sure, you could say "oh, but you can get a Nightfall and try to find a guild to allow you to raid as ret" or "you can get that tanking set from Scholomance and be able to tank dungeons" but the truth is those builds are very subpar and situational and you're going to have to put in way more effort than a normal player would just to play your desired role as a paladin. I don't get it, why would you waste your time and effort on it? What's the point?

I personally want to be a tank, so this time around, when Classic comes out, I'll be rolling a warrior.


Viable =/= Optimal

Just remember that if we wanted things to be easy, we would be playing BFA right now...

#JustSayin
192
...

Just remember that Enhancement Shaman have the worst debuff uptime of any class/spec that can swing Nightfall - due to the fact that Windfury CANNOT trigger procs in Vanilla.

With only auto-attack and Stormstrike (20 sec cd), Enhancement ends up at ~25% uptime.


they would have to promise me drops to do this as a horde hunter, this would get incredibly boring week after week. a shaman shouldn't mind doing it, while i doubt many warriors will be lining up for the job

this min maxing math is interesting, but the hunter needs to have some semblance of fun while playing


I agree that playing a Melee Hunter isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea but at least we now have the actual numbers and PTR/Live test results to back up our theory crafting to be able to show what it looks like.
193
10/03/2018 06:20 AMPosted by Milidan
seal of command + judgement of command and other various procs help trigger the proc incase no one considered them


SoR/JoR is actually better for Nightfall swinging since it goes off on every swing:

Seal of Righteousness - Now does holy damage on every swing. It can now proc correctly as well. The Judgement effect has been renamed "Judgement of Righteousness" to differentiate it from the Seal damage in the combat log.

Judgement of Righteousness - The damage of this judgement was increased significantly. This judgement can now trigger procs. The bonus from spell damage items has been increased slightly.
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_1.9.0

Compared to Seal of Command which is merely "Chance on Hit"

So the strategy is then to stack as much +spell damage as possible, use SoR/JoR and swing Nightfall.
194
10/03/2018 11:39 AMPosted by Theloras
Do you mean Seal Twisting?

If so, then no - I don't Seal Twist as I couldn't get it to work back on Elysium and I haven't bothered trying on LH.

At least on LH, your modified attack speed after using SotC will stay after changing back to another seal. I was using it to dps with SoC as using SotC on 2 of every 3 swings is a ~20% flat haste for a 3.8 speed weapon, ~17.5% for a 3.5 speed weapon. You use SotC right after your auto attack hits but before the animation to maximize the swing time reduction.

10/03/2018 11:46 AMPosted by Theloras
10/03/2018 04:53 AMPosted by Nurdan
I played a paladin back in retail vanilla. When I made the character, I had no idea I was going to be pigeonholed into healing/buffing at max level. Nowhere was I told that. Even before I made the character, I read through the manual while excitedly waiting for the game to finish installing, and the manual gave me the impression that the paladin is a tough class geared towards protecting allies and dealing physical damage. I had no idea I was going to be spamming five minute long buffs and standing behind in a dress.

So of course I was upset about it, like so many other paladins were, at the time. We all laughed at the screencap of that !@#$%^-*!ion post and howled in anger when Chilton (Was it him? It's been so long and I can't be bothered to fact check.) called us a noob class. And of course I was happy when TBC revamp made protection a pretty viable spec for paladins, and when WotLK later made retribution a desirable spec too. If you asked 2008 me if I wanted 2005 paladins to be like 2008 paladins of course I would have said hell yeah, and I'm absolutely certain 99.9999999% of people who played a paladin between 2004 and 2008 would say the same thing.

That being said, most people, I assume, want Classic to emulate vanilla WoW and stay truthful to it as much as possible. No changes unless absolutely necessary (bugs, etc.). This means that for better or for worse, paladins in Classic will be the same as the paladins in retail vanilla were, that is to say, a buffer/healer class. Sure, you could say "oh, but you can get a Nightfall and try to find a guild to allow you to raid as ret" or "you can get that tanking set from Scholomance and be able to tank dungeons" but the truth is those builds are very subpar and situational and you're going to have to put in way more effort than a normal player would just to play your desired role as a paladin. I don't get it, why would you waste your time and effort on it? What's the point?

I personally want to be a tank, so this time around, when Classic comes out, I'll be rolling a warrior.


Viable =/= Optimal

Just remember that if we wanted things to be easy, we would be playing BFA right now...

#JustSayin

Most people don't realize that most people won't bother getting all the extra proc items and other things that let warriors do 1500 dps. It's just not necessary.
195
10/03/2018 11:39 AMPosted by Theloras
Do you mean Seal Twisting?

If so, then no - I don't Seal Twist as I couldn't get it to work back on Elysium and I haven't bothered trying on LH.

At least on LH, your modified attack speed after using SotC will stay after changing back to another seal. I was using it to dps with SoC as using SotC on 2 of every 3 swings is a ~20% flat haste for a 3.8 speed weapon, ~17.5% for a 3.5 speed weapon. You use SotC right after your auto attack hits but before the animation to maximize the swing time reduction.


Very interesting - I hadn't thought of that - might test that out tonight :P

How was your mana though overall? This rotation would seem to be quite mana intensive.

- edit - never mind, you can use rank 1 SotC for the 40% haste alone
196
If the argument is ret vs fury with nightfall for the last spot in the raid, should the math not be a straight comparison Ret:NF vs Fury:NF instead of (Ret:geared - Ret:NF) vs (Fury:geared - Fury:NF)? The dps loss between Fury and Fury-nightfall wouldn't exist if the Fury isn't in the raid anyway.
197
To me this whole thing comes down to whether or not NF is worth it. From what I am reading here and everywhere else that has theorycrafted this I don't see how anyone could say that it is. The numbers Theloras has provided shows that a single ret paladin wielding NF on a pure tank and spank fight can, when adding the dps contribution of the NF buff, do dps on par with good dps. But in every other fight, uptime goes down, and he starts to fall to the bottom of the damage meters.

Adding additional NF wingers has diminishing returns. So adding a hunter, who will deal next to no damage, for an additional 20% uptime, will not be able to make up for losing a real dps. Adding a third is even worse.

Further more, there are many fights where NF is either useless, or will not be able to provide even close to the uptime that it can on fights like Patchwerk.

So if you are trying to min/max, why would you bring 2 bad dps that can sometimes provide a buff to magic dps that will get you the same raid dps as you would with 2 good dps? Especially when they won't even be able to do that on every fight.

Now, if you have a ret friend that refuses to heal and you just want to raid with him, sure. Letting him swing NF will probably make him feel better about his bad dps. But pretending that NF is actually good for anyone other than the OTs is laughable at best.
198
10/04/2018 04:12 AMPosted by Skjaldbjorn
To me this whole thing comes down to whether or not NF is worth it. From what I am reading here and everywhere else that has theorycrafted this I don't see how anyone could say that it is. The numbers Theloras has provided shows that a single ret paladin wielding NF on a pure tank and spank fight can, when adding the dps contribution of the NF buff, do dps on par with good dps. But in every other fight, uptime goes down, and he starts to fall to the bottom of the damage meters.

Adding additional NF wingers has diminishing returns. So adding a hunter, who will deal next to no damage, for an additional 20% uptime, will not be able to make up for losing a real dps. Adding a third is even worse.

Further more, there are many fights where NF is either useless, or will not be able to provide even close to the uptime that it can on fights like Patchwerk.

So if you are trying to min/max, why would you bring 2 bad dps that can sometimes provide a buff to magic dps that will get you the same raid dps as you would with 2 good dps? Especially when they won't even be able to do that on every fight.

Now, if you have a ret friend that refuses to heal and you just want to raid with him, sure. Letting him swing NF will probably make him feel better about his bad dps. But pretending that NF is actually good for anyone other than the OTs is laughable at best.


lol but it is directed at your logic

PS a Ret Paladin 8/8 Tier 1 on fights like Thaddius and Loatheb make the encounters simply a cake walk for a raid to beat:

Lawbringer Armor
Set Bonuses
Wearing more pieces of this set will convey bonuses to your character.
3 pieces: Increases the chance of triggering a Judgement of Light heal by 10%.
5 pieces: Improves your chance to get a critical strike with spells by 1%.
5 pieces: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
8 pieces: Gives the Paladin a chance on every melee hit to heal your party for 189 to 212.
http://classicdb.ch/?itemset=208

Wearing 8/8 Tier 1 on Thaddius
Efficient Heal(970.2k)
#1 Sarkha 176415(738/s) 18.2%
#2 Theoloras 112078(469/s) 11.6%
#3 Rotpotato 108104(452/s) 11.1%
#4 Morbelhazmal 88384(370/s) 9.1%
#5 Pocketholy 77673(325/s) 8.0%
#6 Nolamik 72680(304/s) 7.5%
#7 Nadey 65100(272/s) 6.7%
#8 Salemko 64354(269/s) 6.6%
#9 Rafles 60091(251/s) 6.2%
#10 Drunkpenguin 54221(227/s) 5.6%
#11 Overhealer 52318(219/s) 5.4%
Overheal(336.4k)
#1 Theoloras 70377 (294/s) 20.9%
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=94705&Fight=5
^^^without casting a single castable heal and still doing 923 DPS^^^

Efficient Heal(1296.6k)
#1 Sarkha 195108(687/s) 15.0%
#2 Rotpotato 162547(572/s) 12.5%
#3 Theoloras 138755(489/s) 10.7%
#4 Debye 130230(459/s) 10.0%
#5 Rafles 103239(364/s) 8.0%
#6 Nuerock 90713(319/s) 7.0%
#7 Salemko 90203(318/s) 7.0%
#8 Grethilda 80897(285/s) 6.2%
#9 Morbelhazmal 79355(279/s) 6.1%
#10 Drunkpenguin 75633(266/s) 5.8%
#11 Nadey 54394(192/s) 4.2%
Overheal(271.9k)
#1 Theoloras 75425 (266/s) 27.7%
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=3
^^^again not a single castable heal but this time doing 954 DPS^^^
both of those fights while swinging Nightfall and boosting all caster DPS in the process
199
10/04/2018 12:56 AMPosted by Telumia
If the argument is ret vs fury with nightfall for the last spot in the raid, should the math not be a straight comparison Ret:NF vs Fury:NF instead of (Ret:geared - Ret:NF) vs (Fury:geared - Fury:NF)? The dps loss between Fury and Fury-nightfall wouldn't exist if the Fury isn't in the raid anyway.


Don't give Nightfall to a Fury Warrior in the first place because:

1. It will piss them off
2. The greater debuff uptime is only ~5-10%
2. It will neuter their own personal DPS in the process
200
A) Thaddius buffs dps. 923/954 isn't that impressive when look at the dps everyone else is doing. Top dps was 1734/1546 (wth happened to the mages in that second one?)

B) Between the overhealing and how judgement of light works, I would wager that the only thing you actually accomplished there was padding the healers overhealing.

C) 2 tanks for stalagg and feugen, but only 1 needed for Thaddius. Judging by the low dps for every fight in the raid, I am going to guess that Nikiita, Drp, and Yamille are all tanks. If your guild stands by the Annihilator/Nightfall for OTs, you should have 2 OTs applying the debuff. That would make your uptime contribution negligible.

One last note, I looked at the other fights on those raid IDs. Your dps and healing was abysmal for all of them.