Because Tyrande was worried that after spending time, resources and people to liberate Suramar, that they would end up just putting another Ellisandre in to power.
She wanted some assurance that what she was helping to do wasn’t going to bite her and everyone else in the behind in the end.
That’s one way to look at it
What assurance could Thalyssra have given that would have been satisfactory? That’s kind of my point, I don’t know what she could have said that would have assured Tyrande.
By reminding Tyrande that she and the others were Rebelling against Ellisandre. Granted Tyrande didn’t need to treat them as cannon fodder, that’s on her.
Other than that, I honestly don’t know. Seems Tyrande had already made up her mind that she wanted nothing to do with the Nightborne and was only there to free her home from the Legion
I’m literally not.
I pointed out that whatever Thalyssra’s answer was, it was irrelevant regardless in the context of whether or not the question itself is important (where you began responding to me). It is important to know if the person asking you to commit forces on their behalf has even considered how to gain your trust.
If Thalyssra cannot answer that? That’s not exactly Tyrande’s problem in the least. Especially given that forces were being committed anyway.
What answers could Thalyssra have given? No clue! Not really relevant to whether the question should or should not be asked.
If I’m asking “how can I trust you not to be evil again,” and you’ve been evil before (through selfishness in the face of a world-ending calamity) in a near-identicle situation as the one you want me to help with, then yes. That is an important question and one worth asking.
I’m not “walking anound your question”. I answered by pointing out it is not relevant to whether or not the question should be asked.
But you want to know what an answer could be? How Thalyssra could have answered? I’ll spend a couple seconds spitballing, and come up with…
“I understand your concerns, Tyrande. The history at play here justifies them. But allow me the chance to prove to you that things have changed… That we have changed. That we will fight for this world.”
And it’s still irrelevant to the point of whether or not Tyrande should have even asked the question; of course she should. It’d be foolishly stupid not to.
The PKK is not rebelling to take control of the entire nation of Turkey as its legitimate rulers, They are fighting for independence in select and remote Kurdish lands that they view as ancestrally theirs.
Thalyssra was rebelling not for independence or secession but to replace Elisande as leader. What Tyrande said was completely correct within the context of the situation regarding nation heads and nations and therefore collective punishment and responsibility applies. So however many NBs Tyrande knows or does not know is not at all relevant when they are speaking as nation heads.
The reason I’ve been saying her answer is important is because it speaks to why someone should ask the question.
I wouldn’t ask a person in prison, ‘hey, what’s the price of bread in Alaska’. Because obviously they’re probably not going to be capable of giving a very useful answer to me. Now hey, maybe they could. But it doesn’t seem likely.
You keep saying the question is important. But if there’s no good answer, then clearly it isn’t worth asking.
So the now example isn’t about holding a group responsible, it is about a very specific ‘when there’s a rebel group specifically trying to replace the legitimate rulers of the entire country’.
There is no “now” its always been the case buddy. The fact that you’re slow in processing information is not my responsibility. I just assumed the underlying context and situation is clear enough.
Thalyssra and Tyrande were speaking to each other as two nation heads. Thalyssra on behalf of the Nightborne and Tyrande on behalf of the Night Elves.
That analogy reaks of a bad faith argument. Tyrande was never asking Thalyssra a question she could never know an answer to. She was asking a question Thalyssra absolutely needed to think of an answer for.
A better analogy is asking a prisoner up for parole “how do we know you won’t re-offend?” That analogy works, because it holds the same context.
Do you think parole boards shouldn’t be asking prisoners up for release such questions?
Just because Thalyssra’s unable to think of a way to answer “no, I won’t betray my people again when the Legion wants to blow up the world” doesn’t make it a bad question.
This really just feels like bad faith arguing. Saying that because the betrayal was too big to give a good answer for, she shouldn’t be asked to answer for it at all? Come on, Irenaus.
I mean, there is. The fact you’re lashing out with insults makes me feel confident enough there.
Thalyssra wasn’t a nationhead. The entire discussion was ‘if you get into power’. All she represented where people trying not to be associated with Elisandre.
That’s unfair. The reason I used that analogy is to make the point clear. The possible answer is relevant, that’s what you were contesting before. I specifically wanted a scenario where there wasn’t a good wasn’t possible. In which case I think we’d agree, what could be said makes the purpose of the question important.
I think that’s an appropriate question in-so-far as it is a lot more specific than ‘can you be trusted’. I think there are satisfactory responses. You can discuss how a relative has a job lined up for you. You can discuss how you went through therapy and a drug rehabilitation program.
For Tyrande’s question? I don’t see what answer Tyrande could have expected that would satisfy her.
I think it does if Tyrande knows a good answer isn’t likely.
How is that bad faith? If someone probably can’t give a good answer, I don’t think it is a good question to ask.
But, again, there is a good possible answer to “how can I trust that you won’t be evil”. I provided one. Your analogy removes the context that this isn’t a question whose answer is beyond Thalyssra’s capability to know an answer for.
It’s a bad faith analogy.
“How do I know you won’t be as bad as the last two rulers?”
“Well, this is what I plan to do differently. Give me a chance to prove it.”
You’re claiming that saying the above is simply impossible for Thalyssra. Why is that impossible when I can come up with that answer in seconds?
It’s bad faith because there are possible answers. I previously provided one. I highlighted how this situation is not dissimilar to another one. You refuse to acknowledge those.
This is just bad faith argument. I’m done with it.
Dude you have constantly accused me of being dishonest, moving goal posts and etc.
Whatever lashing out you get is well deserved.
She was the nationhead at the time representing the Nightborne.
She is still the nationhead representing the nightborne.
All she represents is the “good and just” Nightborne leader for the players.
She got addressed by Tyrande as a nationhead.
Again, I used it because you were claiming Thalyssra’s answer wasn’t relevant. Did I misunderstand your point regarding that?
If we both agree whether she could give a good answer or not is relevant, I think we’re on the same page. My position was and is that I don’t think she could have given a good answer.
The question wasn’t that though. Hence why I said the other question was good because it was more specific. The question was, how do I know you won’t betray us.
Because they’re different questions. That would have been a fine question.
It isn’t bad faith if we disagree.
I don’t agree it is a good answer, though.
I didn’t refuse, I was sticking on your insistence the answer wasn’t important.
I accused you of being dishonest like once. But saying you’re moving the goalposts isn’t an insult. Don’t act like you weren’t rude basically off the bat. That’s who you seem to be.
She was a rebel leader representing rebels.
She was the rebel representing Nightborne and is now officially their leader as intended.
Hence Tyrande was within every right to pin the guilt of the Nightborne on Thalyssra as their representative.
There is nothing at issue here. Everything has been said and described as intended.
And I responded accordingly.
No, you were rude before that.
I don’t know why you’re pretending otherwise.
No, she was the rebel representing the rebel Nightborne. She was the very person who tried to stop the others.
Nope not rude.
First response is to you blatantly putting words in my mouth.
Second one is blatantly disagreeing with your… interpretation of the world.
And third one is commentary on naive idealism. Which fine I called childish but same thing.
I have said what I have said. The information is given to you and you must come to accept it in your own time.
I cannot force you.
Tyrande addressed Thalyssra as a leader representing her people. Whatever Tyrande said were totally justified and she did not to meet and know every single NB.
Very clearly. Thalyssra’s answer is irrelevant regarding whether or not Tyrande should ask the question. I have said this, repeated it, and cannot make it clearer.
Then show how to answer is possible, when I’ve shown how one is.
The comments I posted are blatantly rude.
That’s literally a quote from you.
I don’t know why you would view ‘what world do you live in as not rude’. That clearly is.
Which is an insult. Calling someone naive or childish clearly is rude.
I don’t know what this act is for.
I mean, same to you. If you don’t want to accept the truth, so be it.
Her people being the rebel Nightborne. Not those with the Legion.
This will be the last reply in line by line quote that I will give you.
They are not.
And if you click on my quote and click the little arrow icon you can see what it is I am responding to. This is what I mean when I say that maybe legitimately you have certain struggles here with either how the forums function or english and that causes misunderstandings for you and then you get upset and accuse others of moving the goal post.
it is not.
When you say naive idealism then I am going to call it naive idealism. Its reality.
Dude Thalyssra was the rebel leader and then became the uncontested leader when she won her war with our help.
Tyrande talked to her as the representative of the people she strived to be and was able to become. What Tyrande said to Thalyssra was 100% justified in the given context.
They are, and I’ll accept maybe you come from somewhere that being rude is commonplace.
This is what I mean about being dishonest. Asking someone in text discussion ‘can you read’ is a dig against their capabilities and intelligence.
It is implying someone isn’t in touch with reality in an insulting way, lol.
Well that’s also not what you called it. So you’re trying to rewrite it in a nicer light. You called it childish idealism. Again, which is a rude comment.
She was the rebel leader, yes! Because she represented the rebels. That was her role.
If the answer is irrelevant, then why do you have an issue when I compare the situation to other situations where I think no good answer is possible (or likely)?
If the answer is irrelevant, you don’t ever need to appeal to ‘Thalyssra had good answers’. You’d be fine with a scenario otherwise. It wouldn’t be a problem.
I mean, we can stick with your answer example. I just don’t think that (or any answer) is good.