New talent trees

Yeah, I don’t like convoke but I’ve come around to keeping it as an option. Just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean it can’t exist.

I am concerned that it’s too strong though in comparison to Incarn. Incarn replaces berserk, picking convoke means you get convoke and berserk, it’s hard for me to see that combo being worse then just having Incarn.

Incarn needs some help.


You also get double-clawed Stealth Rake with Berserk now too, and the CP refund has immense value rotating Sabertooth and Tear Open Wounds windows.

Berserk doesn’t need to do ‘everything.’ CD’s can have different strengths and weaknesses.

Sickle is boring gameplay-wise and also makes using Berserk weird. If it was stand-alone, and even had some other effects, maybe it’d be more interesting.

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LOL yeah i can definately relate to this. :rofl:

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Can we ditch the three point talents in the base tree already?


Since not everyone has access to comment or write on the beta forums, I wanted to take a moment and cross-post this here, to gather feedback from a larger audience of Guardian druids so we could take ALL feedback back to the designers.

Post from Beta

So I have been working on a Guardian druid talent revamp, one which doesn’t add any new talents but instead focuses solely on re-organization to offer better player agency in paths and options. This is still very much a WIP but I wanted to share this sooner in case this could perhaps inspire the Guardian developer a bit.



  • Moved Mangle to the top left.
  • Moved Gore as a sibling to Mangle.
  • Split Bristling Fur and Brambles into separate, optional pathing choices.
  • Moved Survival Instincts (Rank 2) as part of the main right path.
  • Rearranged The Galactic Guardian and Mangle/Maul talents
    • Moved GG-based talents to the inner left side of the tree.
    • Moved Mangle/Maul-based talents to the inner right side of the tree.
    • Twin Moonfire and Scintillating Moonlight are siblings of Galactic Guardian
  • Moved Layered Mane and Reinfurced Fur to the far right side of the tree.
  • Split Ursoc’s Fury and Dream of Cenarius, allowing DoC to be a sibling of Unchecked Aggression, as an optional talent.
  • Moved Stampeding Roar up a row and made it a sibling of Ravage.
  • Split Blood Frenzy and Soul of the Forest, moving Blood Frenzy to the middle of the tree, with accessibility from any type of build.
  • Split After the Wildfire and Guardian of Elune, moving After the Wildfire as a sibling of Persistence, as an optional talent.
  • Split Rend and Tear and Untamed Savagery, moving Untambed Savagery as a sibling of Fury of Nature, as an optional talent.


  • Make some critical talents across multiple game modes more accessible.
  • Reduce the number of choices to improve the player agency.
  • Align all 3 capstone paths with similar numbers of choices, i.e. max 2 per capstone.

Future ideas:

  • Rework Modal Cooldown bonus, making it based entirely off player rotation, akin to things like Insatiable Blade, Anger Management, Righteous Protector, etc and have this reduction affect Incarnation and Berserk, depending on which are talented.
  • Move Innate Resolve as a sibling to Maul, directly in the center, and replace with a more interesting talent option, perhaps something new?

I welcome all feedback from my fellow fuzzies, and again I hope our designer can take some inspiration from this effort.

This is an undated recommended talent tree for Guardian, based on feedback from the beta forums (updated):



New balance stuff

That blue post just made my night. So many good changes.

Nice work, though Id still like to see more imagination from the Devs .

Taking our existing build and spreading it in some sort of multiple point system to get back the same old single power just feels unrewarding and punishing if i don’t spend the extra number of points to get it back to current status quo and in the end… what is new for the next expac? Nothing really, just access to the same powers on my tree from this current expac.

Well minus having the disco bear possibilities if you’re willing to give up base talents i’ve always used like Rend and Tear and incarnation.

I know bears are often considered the “easy” tank, and god knows between my tanks I own, it is the only tank where I can fit all of my tanking abilities on on my naga mouse buttons without using a modifier key. My warrior for example, I ran out of places to put abilities on the UI and had to move abilities to where I would normally keep all my buffs like potions etc. So many options, so much utility much like my Paladin Tank.

Regardless, I started as bear and it’s my main. I can only play my other tanks once or twice then I miss my bear, who Ive put the longest time on.

If they really thought hard about it, they could bring back old vanilla talents to fill in the gaps so I don’t have to spend 3 point’s to get a single power back to its original form.

Hell Id put a point back into Faerie fire, and another point to make it a range silence.
Give me another point option to remove FR from the GCD…id spend that point in a heartbeat.

You know, quite honest, if they don’t want bears to have utility or high damage, then they should make it up in other ways, but having lowest utility, lowest damage and threat…really is quite depressing.

Happy about the balance tree changes,hoping bear and the class tree will get work next.

Since lycara’s teachings is just a boring stat improvment that most other classes have higher in their tree can it be replaced with the kindred bond legendary affect. It doesnt need the active part with the shared damage amp or healing but just giving us and a partner some stats would be nice.

A toned down symbiosis or kindred affinity; basing the stats off the spec instead of covenant like lycara’s does with forms.

Giving another class brez and having our normal utility pushed off in the corners of the tree; itd be nice to have something easy access (its center tree with a start node right above it) and useful for the group.


They seem to be going one by one to completely redo each of the Druid trees. So I expect Guardian to be next week. (Hopium) The reworks have all definitely been better than the first drafts though I’m a little concerned that the fast timetable won’t allow them enough time for refinement.

It’d also be nice if the class tree received the same treatment. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe the class tree has gotten any updates since its first appearance? When it was first revealed I thought it was serviceable and better than our spec trees but now I’m thinking it could use an overhaul to be more in line with what other class trees provide. Plus the utility is a little biased towards the caster side and while I’m used to that it’d be nice to at least have some even footing there for once.

I am definitely hoping they release some info about the class and Guardian tree within the week or two as you are correct. There has not been any work done on the class tree after it was anounnced.

Being the only class tree with 3 point spenders left and Guardian the only spec tree with such. I really don’t want to go live with the current class tree, I am happy with what they have done with Balance and Feral though.

Pretty they need to fix those two trees up and make a two handed agility weapon for the end of the raid and at least to me I’ll feel set.

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Hopefully after Guardian gets the love they need they do something about the general tree

It’s still a mess.

My theory is that the general tree and guardian tree are taking some time so while they are totally silent about them, I feel like they will be updated as well. There’s no way they spend this much time on the resto/feral/balance trees and leave the general so trashed.

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There were some stealth bear changes this week that feel like precursors similar to how feral got some minor tweaks before the full re-do.

Druid general tree would be the hardest given there are 4 specs, with each being a different role.

I imagine it would be very difficult to balance and path correctly so players of all 4 specs are happy, also noting pve and pvp players want different things.

As a general observation for the Resto tree, the new Verdancy talent seems very lackluster without utilizing the synergy from Photosynthesis. I don’t see any Druid taking it unless they specifically are going for a full Photo build. I think a good thing might be to let the talent proc off of an additional HoT, maybe Regrowth? Rejuv might be too powerful depending on the proc chance, but a chance to proc on Regrowth could be welcome in making it more potent without having to rely on a full photo build.

Before, it directly led to photosynthesis from one side so it made sense. Now circles taken its place with photo behond that.

Its not really a bad thing if circles increased tick means more photo blooms but it is a little less direct now. Its definitly feels likr a forced build though.

Edit- has anyone tried circle double bloom and photo with verdancy for like a mana efficient raid stack fight/tank heals. Could be a fun alt build to the normal tree/flourish stuff.

I am noticing that I am having more trouble dpsing with my Rdruid than with my Hpriest and MW. Maybe he’s executing the rotation wrong, but I’ve noticed that the Hpriest’s new spell is doing a lot of damage, I think the energy regen + Eclipse nerf is significantly affecting the Rdruid’s dps… I’d like them to give us 1 spell (other than covenant), that it was a spell to do dps (since there are useless or not so flashy talents) or at least give us back the aforementioned (except Eclipse, since that system was completely changed).

Since the double crit combo was moved to the tree and taken out of heart, the bonus energy regen should be added to take its place for smoother cat weaving.

I love the double combo points on ptr (way more then bonus energy regen, i can stack haste to make up for that) and with circle; single target moon/sunfire need a refresh often enough energy isnt a problem, but aoe will just be sunfire/thrash into swipe spam and the energy decrease is noticeable there.

Id still prefer heart be a permanent passive like it originally was but any buffs to its current form to make it worthwhile are nice.

Testing Feral’s Talent at PTR
The biggest feeling is that Incarnation (or Berserk) cannot compete with Conflux of Elements
The DPS and rewards given by Incarnation are too poor unless the existing 4 set bonus is added to Incarnation and it may be able to fight against Conflux of Elements

Otherwise, the choice between the two is actually just false and has no meaning.

Incarnation’s cooldown is too long, even with another talent that lowers the cooldown
But overall it’s still a minute longer than Conflux of Elements

Incarnation has no obvious improvement or change in DPS changes.
This is a real gap between AOE and single-target combat compared to Conflux of Elements

The DPS benefit of Conflux of Elements at least under 2~3 goals can meet expectations (more than 3 goals, the diminishing benefit is obvious)
On the other hand, Incarnation’s only 20% reduction in energy consumption is really unattractive and obvious practical benefits