New Shadow Rework Feedback

First I want to say thank you to the devs for making major changes to Shadow! I think it’s a big step in the right direction.

Next I want to say that it’s some BIG changes, it’s going to take some time to process and get used to all the changes, and I want to encourage everyone to be patient and give themselves time to explore them.

It could be a processing issue (see above) but I think there’s some changes they have likely left out of the write-up, as it does not play correctly in my head yet. So be aware that I think we’re missing a couple things still.

The purpose of this post is both for me to consolidate my thoughts, and request feedback from the community, before sending that feedback to the Devs.

Feedback:

  • The cast time of Void Eruption has been reduced by 40%.

Good change, matters somewhat less now that Void Eruption is a 90 second cooldown, but still a welcome improvement.

  • Mind Blast reduces the cooldown of Mind Blast by 7.5 sec. (and not for 7 seconds, as before).

Excellent change, also matters less now that Voidform no longer has ~90% uptime and no longer reduces the cooldown of Mind Blast, but it still fixes the misaligned GCD issue.

  • Shadow Word: Death no longer increases Insanity.

Good move. Removing the Insanity generation on baseline SW: Death makes it more of a situational execute spell, and makes Death & Madness talent more compelling.

  • Shadowy Apparitions effect has been reworked: when you use Mind Blast, Devouring Plague, or Void Bolt, you create your own ghostly copies that move towards all enemies affected by your Vampiric Touch and deal damage to them from dark magic. On a critical strike, two Apparitions appear.

This makes ghosts much rarer, they don’t scale infinitely since they are cooldown-locked by Mind Blast, DP, and Void Bolt. This suggests they will need to hit much harder than on Live, which I think is a good choice - rarer, more controllable, and more impactful: all moves in the right direction.

This causes Crit scaling and Haste scaling still, since these cooldowns scale with haste, and they double proc on Crit increasing the value of Crit % for us. That’s neither good nor bad, just stating it for the record.

Voidform
Now has a 90 second cooldown and increases the damage done by 20%. Lasts 15 sec.
Voidform no longer reduces the cooldown of Mind Blast, but instantly restores the spell upon cast, and grants you 2 charges while in Voidform.
While in Voidform, you no longer gain a Haste bonus every 0.5 sec

There is a lot to unpack here. Let’s start from the big picture. Removing Voidform removes much of the broken elements of Shadow (detailed elsewhere): this is great news!

Today, Voidform sucks up an enormous amount of Shadow’s power budget. This change means all of Shadow’s base damage needs to be buffed significantly (like, +50% to all spells, even after the added power in this rework). This alone will make Shadow MUCH better for World Questing, PVP, Mythic+, and even all raid content where we couldn’t ramp fully, for a variety of reasons. Shadow is instantly better at ~all content, because of this rework!

As a cooldown, it’s a bit weird. Part of the uniqueness of Shadow has always been not relying on cooldowns, that said having a 90 second cooldown is good for modern WOW content, so maybe it’s time that changes.

First, I want to ask if it truly increases damage by 20%, or if it increases damage by 20% while replacing Shadowform’s 10% (as it does on Live)? If that’s the case, it’s pretty weak for a 90 second cooldown, I don’t want to be a cooldown class anyways - so that’s fine - just drawing attention to that overlap interaction.

It’s also going to be a bit weird to play, because I’m going to stick a 90 second cooldown on some key like F2: which will then become my Void Bolt key and I will need to mash 3 (Mind Blast) + F2 (Void Bolt) while it’s active.

Additionally, this gives Shadow a LOT of cooldowns, all of which want to be stacked up for burst phases, which means high downtime between their uses. We now have:

  • Shadowfiend - 180 minutes, or
  • Mindbender - 60 seconds
  • Voidform - 90 seconds
  • Power Infusion - 120 seconds
  • Surrender To Madness - 90 seconds
  • Boon of the Ascended - 180 seconds, or
  • Fae Blessings - 90 seconds

Fae Blessings will need to be redesigned. My honest advice would be to remove most of these cooldowns: it’s just too much, and not of interest to Shadowpriests. Ex.

  • Remove Shadowfiend
  • Remove Power Infusion
  • Remove Surrender To Madness

Make Voidform increase haste by ~20% instead of increasing damage, this will also feel a lot better to play with. Mindbender remains an option for those who like it. Covenant cooldowns remain too. Shift power budget from the lost cooldowns back into baseline Shadow.

Devouring Plague
Devouring Plague’s duration has been reduced to 6 seconds and damage dealt is increased by 50%.
Developer comment: Reducing the duration of the damage over time effect in order to make the damage from the spell sharper will help to avoid reapplication of the effect (taking into account the possible excess damage).
Devouring Plague can now critically hit.
Devouring Plague is now available at level 20.

All of this is good news thank you! Numbers will still be low I suspect, but that’s a tuning issue I’m sure the devs will get to eventually.

Dark Thoughts (Passive) (Level 16): For every damage over time you cast on the target, Mind Flay and Mind Sear have a 2% chance to gain a Mind Blast charge and make it instant cast. For the next 6 sec. Mind Blast can be cast while channeling Mind Flay or Mind Sear.
The effect of “Dark Thoughts” can stack up to 5 times if it procs several times in a row.

To our current understanding, Mind Blast has no charges, so “Gain a Mind Blast charge” is confusing. Presumably this means Mind Blast still has no charges, but Dark Thoughts can accumulate up to 5 stacks which allow us to press Mind Blast without invoking a cooldown. Is this correct?

That said, Dark Thoughts adds the ‘fun’ of Shadowy Insight to baseline Shadow, and that’s a great change - especially with the removal of rotational Void Bolt instant casts.

My only concern with Dark Thoughts is that it seems to heavily encourage synergy with Psychic Link, such that apart from a pure Patchwerk fight, I struggle to see when other talents will compete with Psychic Link now. Auspicious Spirits might be interesting for accelerated Insanity generation off high Crit %, but I can’t imagine it will ever compete with cleaving Mind Blasts everywhere. Similarly Shadow Crash needs to scale with Mastery, and have the cooldown scale with Haste, to even have a prayer of competition with Psychic Link + Dark Thought synergy.

Dark Thoughts is so good it likely makes Psychic Link mandatory. You could solve this by nerfing Psychic Link, that’s the simple tuning fix - but the better solution would be to make Shadow Crash scale, and make Auspicious Spirits do something more interesting now that Apparitions have been reworked.

Level 15
Shadowy Insight (Talent) removed.
Shadow Word: Void (Talent) removed.
The Death and Madness talent is now available at this level.
New Talent: Unfurling Darkness: After casting Vampiric Touch, your next Vampiric Touch is instant and deals 155% of your Shadow damage immediately. This effect can be triggered no more than once every 15 sec.

Good changes overall. This makes Death & Madness much more compelling. Fortress of the Mind remains too boring to ever consider unfortunately. The loss of Shadow Word: Void is hopefully resolved with the addition of Dark Thoughts procs.

Unfurling Darkness seems like it’s in a weird spot. The intent is to make multidotting easier, but it only procs once every 15 seconds and doesn’t reduce the GCDs to get DOTS setup. So it doesn’t actually make multidotting easier, it just slaps a small amount of damage on it?

In addition, given the ratio is higher than our filler DPET we will use it rotationally even on single targets - this would mean hardcasting VT to refresh the duration, then immediately insta-casting VT (via UD) for the 155% SP ratio. Intended?

Level 45
Lingering Insanity (Talent) removed.
Dark Void (Talent) removed.
New Talent Searing Nightmare: Instantly inflicts Shadow damage to all enemies near the target and applies Shadow Word: Pain to them. If the enemy is already affected by your Shadow Word: Pain, Searing Nightmare deals double damage. Can only be cast while channeling Mind Sear.

Does Searing Nightmares have a cooldown, or do we just spam this while channeling Mind Sear? Weird. Also, if we are multidotting adds, we will still need to hardcast VTs on all of them anyways - and if we’re doing that, we will likely take Misery, which will apply Pain.

The problem I think is actually Mind Sear. In the game you are designing in Shadowlands, infinite-target AOE damage like Mind Sear has been removed, but Shadow still has it. This was likely overlooked because Mind Sear is terrible anyways. But now you are designing talents around it.

A better solution, IMO, would be to delete Mind Sear. We won’t be casting Mind Sear anyways in Shadowlands, since we will need to manually multidot VT+Pain constantly (no VB extensions), and fill the rest with Dark Thought procs (likely with Psychic Link). So Mind Sear will already be dropped out of the rotation even if nothing changes.

Then you can redesign Searing Nightmares to do something better. I have tons of ideas if you need, but you will likely invent your own thing anyways. Let me know if you need help though.

New Talent Damnation: Instantly and at no resource cost, hits the target with Shadow Word: Pain, Vampiric Touch, and Devouring Plague. 45 sec cooldown.
Void Torrent: No longer pauses Insanity Drain on cast, but now refreshes the duration of your Shadow damage over time effects when channeling.

Damnation is amazing and I love it. Good job.
Void Torrent is still in an awkward spot I think. Damnation, being 3 GCDs in 1, and a free DP, is likely always going to be better than Void Torrent for single target damage. So when do I care about Void Torrent?

Just to be clear, for Void Torrent to be equal, it would need to do more damage than DP, PLUS 5 extra GCDs worth of filler, all inside the 4 second channel. So off the top of my head, Void Torrent would need to do at least 1000% SP over 4 seconds to justify the channel time. Doing this would also create the problem that Damnation is now always worse than Void Torrent: unless we can never find time to channel VT.

Instead, maybe make Void Torrent do this:

Void Torrent - When you cast Devouring Plague, your next Mind Flay will be empowered to Void Torrent, dealing increased damage and extending your DOTs on the target. 3 second channeled spell (same as Mind Flay, also procs Dark Thoughts at the same rate as Mind Flay).

This gives Damnation and Void Torrent clear niches. Damnation is better for multidotting or short encounters like world questing or trash pulls. Void Torrent is better for single target fights, or empowering burst windows for raiding and PVP. Also, they should come out similar enough that people can play their preference - if you like empowered channels, its not a huge difference, if you like instant DOTs sometimes, thats fine too.

Level 50
Dark Ascension (Talent) removed.
The Legacy of the Void talent has been reworked: Voidform no longer has a duration, but while you assume Voidform, your madness will begin to decrease at an increasing rate. When it reaches 0, Voidform will expire. Spell damage in Voidform is increased by an additional 5%.
Surrender to Madness: Cooldown reduced to 90 seconds.
New Talent: Ancient Madness: When you cast Voidform, your critical strike chance is increased by 30% for 15 sec. This increase gradually decreases by 2% per second.

Legacy probably won’t satisfy the people who, bizarrely, like BFA Voidform. They want 100% crit and 200% haste all the time, and only 2 buttons to manage, and LOTV won’t do it. Kudos to you for offering them an olive branch, I’m sorry it’s unlikely to make them happy.

Surrender To Madness still sucks, even with the massive buff that this cooldown reduction represents. It doesn’t do anything fun, it’s a marginal DPS gain, and sometimes it kills us. Unless it is mandatory we will continue to avoid it.

Ancient Madness is good, though personally I’d rather have +15% crit during Voidform, rather than 30-0% crit during Voidform. I don’t get the point of the extra complexity here. Also, % crit is intangible. Ancient Madness is good, but it’s boring and needlessly complicated. It’s still the choice 99% of Spriests will take.

24 Likes

For the record.
https://cata-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?spell=87153

Dark Archangel (Dark Evangelism) - Instantly restores 5% of your total mana and increases the damage done by your Mind Flay, Mind Spike, Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death by 4% for each stack. Lasts for 18sec. 90 sec cooldown.

This is something I can get behind as it worked well in Cata. However, we also had Mind Spike back then.

Would be nice to have Mind Spike back in some way OR make VB off CD? Only issue with that is it will affect the LOTV talent as I assume that needs it to still generate insanity. But maybe we can just make it so it extends dots duration & have it instant cast with no CD or casted with no CD like Mind Spike? That way you can extend dot duration while doing damage instead of recasting dots?

Just a thought.

This is just too useful to remove imo.

You can use to keep someone in combat (prevent restealths/blinds/saps) and cause spell casting pushback (poly into fire/frostbolt etc.)

Also, you can use this as a DPS cooldown when your prevented from casting (silence etc.) and if your slow, you don’t have to chase down your target, your fiend can follow them so they cant LOS your burst and once again prevent restealth fight etc.

Finally, you can add functionality to the fiend like T13 4 set. This can take form in a legendary or something. Or it just naturally has some function/interaction with you spec (granting procs/reducing VF CD etc.)

Disagree. I want meatier attacks on demand. Not faster. If you want faster, then get haste stats.

I want to think the “stacking” is the “proc” chance instead of the “charges” of Mind Blast as it would be quite silly to have 5 instant cast mind blasts back to back. We need clarification / testing on this.

5 Likes

Shadowfiend works good for pvp situations like Aneurysm metioned before and it’s an iconic spell we had for a long time.

For increasing our haste we have Power Infusion cd, so no need for VF to also increase it (It would be broken af) so it seems ok to increase our spell damage.

1 Like

I think PI should be removed imo.

Just Voidform (Dark Archangel lol) and Shadowfiend as DPS CD’s imo.

1 Like

-Dives into the Sunwell. Uncorrupts place-holder Lac, brings back original Priest-

Take your $15 Blizzard, this is called positive reinforcement.

5 Likes

Yea I think they should remove Power Infusion from shadow and leave it to Disc and Holy.

VF instead should give us 20% haste + 20% spell damage or just the haste buff.

I mean I think this mostly because of GCD will be quite clunky to press PI and then VF to maximize burst. Unless VF stays out of the GCD.

2 Likes

PI is off the GCD right now. But I’d rather see PI go than Shadowfiend… even if our little shadow buddy is kind of useless in pve.

3 Likes

I still think VF should only be +damage not +haste.

If its +haste then I think we start to run into scaling issues again (not as bad as before) but I think we should stay away from talents that give % stats. I rather our gear gives us stats.

Same thing with the + crit in VF talent. I think that needs to be reworked as well.

This is my opinion and I am not hard opposed to it, but I just think its overall healthier to gear for stats and build for damage.

Just as long as VF +dmg remains as that needs to be meaty for hard hitting abilities… not fast hitting dots.

Loving your thoughts, but I think we need to talk more about this. You already mentioned that re-balancing non-VF gameplay is the main thing now, but I think this talent is a bit of a worrisome clue to how they’ll do that: they’ll try to balance non-legacy VF with legacy VF instead of non-VF with legacy VF. They should probably increase the cooldown of VF to 3 minutes instead of 90 seconds to make it easier for them to balance legacy VF with VF-as-a-cooldown without making VF-as-a-cooldown ‘essential’ to gameplay the way it is now. IDK, thoughts here?

1 Like

We also have power infusion, so a haste cd is kind of pointless

I think a +% increase could work,but it would have to be a standalone thing. Voidform basically broke because everything piled on top of it’s scaling and numbers just got wild

Get rid of Shadowfiend, won’t miss it one bit.

It’s value is heavily overstated.

3 Likes

I was also wondering how this would work from a practical standpoint. I agree that it would feel strange to have a 90-second cooldown bound to the same key you want to spam when it’s up.

I also found the post a bit unclear as to whether it’s just Void Form itself becoming a 90-second cooldown or if it would stay as Void Eruption into Void Form + Void Bolt (although I could have just missed or misread something).

Looking forward to seeing how it plays in beta.

1 Like

Currently we do yes.
But I think PI should be removed from shadow. OR bake in the haste buff into LOTV for those folks.

We should keep VF +% damage buff for burst moments.
We should keep Shadowfiend for extra spec interactions and its VERY useful in PvP.

Everything else (DPS CD’s) needs to be removed or be regulated to a talent.

Its very useful in PvP. Do you disagree? If so, why?
It should stay for PvP and its an extra mechanic that can function/interact with our spec with procs or reduce CD on VF per hit etc.

Thanks so much for this, guys. Obviously we won’t know for sure until we get to try it out on the beta servers but just reading through it this spec looks like it will be a lot of fun to play.

2 Likes

When our DPS CD was Dark Archangel, I bound that key to my Mind Spike key. Why you ask? With Mind spike, it was a castable spell (in Cata) and as long as I am standing in place (you have to in order to cast the spell at all) then when I press my Mind Spike Button, it casts Mind Spike.
But when I want to cast Dark Archangel, I simple “move” or “jump” and press the same key. This activated Dark Archangel. Then I Follow up with my burst buttons which was the same button + my MB button.

This allowed for quick and easy button access that then flowed right into the same button press as I would either cast Mind Spike or Mind Blast.

I am not sure if that would work with the updated coding with abilities and what not etc. But I wound it to flow very nicely.

Again, VF is not instant cast and even if it was, I am not sure it would work the same.

Just thought I’d share how I bound my DPS CD in Cata.

This. This. This. Goes a long way to preserving Void Form’s original feeling as a Haste battery, while allowing to basically roll Power Infusion into it.

2 Likes

Why cant we bake in the 20% haste into LOTV instead for those guys so they can get the fast paced build. Then leave VF with the +% damage so its more of the “meaty” build for higher burst potential?

I think it would be great to choose between faster paced spec and a more meaty damage spec.

3 Likes

^ This is an even better idea.

1 Like

I would really like this. I’d much prefer shadow be a rot spec with minimal burst CDs. I’m not really liking the idea of having to stack voidform,power infusion, shadowfiend, and plague

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Precisely, I don’t want to run math equations in my head to make sure I press X button during Y time of Z window etc.

I want to enjoy my spec and know when I press a button, its going to do what what is expected all the time, not just “some times”.

1 Like