Remember all of the raging Sylvanas haters wishing for Arthas to get redemption by brutally murdering Sylvanas?
Pepperidge Farm Remembers 
11 Likes
The people wishing Arthas would kill Sylv are one thing. But he at least deserves “I understand what you went through now. I don’t forgive you, but I understand. We were both played.”
11 Likes
That’s what I think it is, too. It wouldn’t be the first time a sword in WoW held an impression of it’s past users. As you pointed out, Anduin also had a vision of Varian when he first claimed Shalamayne in Legion, and Legion also featured both the Blades of the Fallen Prince and the Ashbringer containing impressions of Arthas and Tirion, respectively.
Saurfang was the only one to split it during BfA. Anduin’s most notable instances of handling it during BfA were when he intentionally dropped it during the announcement cinematic in order to focus on casting instead, and when he presented it to Saurfang to use for the mak’gora. This is the first time he’s split it, as far as we know. All the previous times he’s attempted to wield it in combat (as himself, at least) have been clumsy.
They’ve been shown as red and blue when separated before. I’m not sure if they’ve always been shown that way going back to the WoW comics, but they’re red and blue when Saurfang separates them in BfA.
Tiffin died when Anduin was an infant. She doesn’t know him, he doesn’t know her, and we the players don’t really know her either. It wouldn’t have been satisfying to have Tiffin show up here and only here in all of Shadowlands. I would have loved to see Tiffin (and some of the other dead wives and mothers of Warcraft) get some actual character development in Shadowlands the way Draka did, but since she didn’t, it would have been strange to just shove her into the narrative for this one moment.
That’s because the cinematic and raid fight are only partially about Anduin. Bolvar and Genn don’t have the same strong narrative connections to Arthas that Sylvanas, Uther, and Jaina do, and famously they didn’t really get proper closure about that during Wrath.
Yes, and the story agrees with this. Arthas doesn’t lose out on a chance at redemption solely because he’s bad, he wasn’t judged by the Arbiter and found irredeemable. This was Uther’s doing, and the story explicitly frames Uther’s actions as wrong.
4 Likes
I think this was important with the soul splitting story line.
While Arthas was always meant to be willingly going along with the Lich King’s plans, the story did have hints that a piece of him or his salvation, still remained. I think this can be clearly seen in the final parts of the Shadowmourne Quest.
If Arthas had cut out his own heart with Frostmourne, splitting his soul in two. That little bit of Light should have lingered in that soul fragment.
That’s why it would have been more fitting if Arthas and Varian were the two souls seen guiding Anduin back from the darkness…
Anduin: … I see only darkness before me…
Varian: My son, this Blade does not belong to darkness…
Varian: it was forged… by valor…
Arthas: … and also by honor…
Arthas: you and its legacy do not end here…
Both: the Light is with you, even here.
Uther: Arthas… I’m… sorr…
Arthas: No words Uther, we must all atone for what we’ve done…
Arthas: May the Light be with you all…
Like I said, for me the cinematic tries to push so much of the blame off onto Arthas.
“I must carry this burden… because you made me this way!”
Garrosh 2.0 =/
3 Likes
Instead, Arthas just dissipates like a fart, never to be smelt ever again.
Poot
7 Likes
I don’t feel that the story agrees with this. I don’t think the story acknowledges this dimension of this at all. I feel like the story is explicitly telling us that Arthas is gone forever, to forget about him and his legacy and the shadow he cast over people’s lives.
I don’t see how this could be the case. He was manipulated just as Sylvanas was. They attempt to make the argument that Arthas had free will, but it doesn’t make any sense. He was more directly controlled than Sylvanas was after the helmet, and before the helmet he was being subtly manipulated every step of the way.
Sylvanas’s monologue means nothing coming from her.
4 Likes
Sylvanas admits she became Arthas Menethil, and all likelihood appears that Sylvanas will be judged to the fate in the Maw for the very actions she took to avoid end up there like Arthas. This feels like a good direction for the story to go in to me, especially if Arthas to be forgotten is also a reflection of how long Sylvanas could be in the Maw.
8 Likes
I can imagine them consigning her to basically cleaning up the Maw, freeing the souls still redeemable, purging those beyond repair. Given the sheer number of people that got hoovered up it would take well… forever, basically.
15 Likes
I liked it. Honestly I liked the Elune/Winter Queen story too. I’d rather they try something different even if it doesn’t all work out instead of “And the good guys killed the evil Sylvanas and Arthas showed up and hugged Uther and all the Night Elf souls were saved and everyone was happy! The End.”
No it means that Arthas has the ultimate punishment… NONEXISTENCE.
It also means that his book is finally bloody closed.
6 Likes
How dare you respond to me.
Given that she has progressed to the point where she can own to her sins, the appropriate place is Revendreth. Some of the people judged there were actual world burners after all.
That’s assuming of course that she’s executed.
3 Likes
If the implication with this is that Arthas, Varian and Saurfang are gone forever then I’m not Ok with that. These characters are super iconic. Arthas is a huge part of WoW’s roots so him being gone (if thats the case) is a huge let down for me. I would’ve preferred Arthas to come back as his paladin self and continue on in the story after Shadowlands. The likelihood of that happening now seems impossible unless some kind of time shenanigans happen with the sepulcher of knowledge. The cinematic was good. I would’ve rather seen Sylvanas show a bit of forgiveness towards Arthas but it seems like she just wanted to see him gone either way. Oh well. We’ll see how it all ends and what happens next with WoW soon.
1 Like
Or people are free to intepret it the way they want and the cinematic can be interpreted that way. That the writers are so petty as to make something so awful. As others have mentioned this is probably the only cinematic where you can enjoy the first half and totally hate the second.
If they wanted people to actually sympathize with Sylvanas here I think they failed. All anyone will remember is how she hogged the spotlight to monologue incoherently. Heck, if she gone with a neutral tone of “it is done, leave” instead of adding her vicious spite it would been so much better.
3 Likes
Sylvanas doesn’t have to be executed to be judged by Tyrande. Tyrande has also never been to Revendreth, so that is not a likely outcome for Sylvanas.
I didn’t get the impression that she actually forgave Arthas, merely that
getting her full soul back
plus
no longer being a sociopath she felt bad about all the horrible things she’s done in pursuit of her revenge
plus
seeing the utterly pathetic state he’d been reduced to in the end
equals
“Was it really worth it?”
2 Likes
I’m pretty sure they were intending to do way more with Arthas (thus Sylvanas, Uther, Jaina) but wisely reconsidered. Probably just another casualty of pumping the brakes on Shadowlands to move on to something hopefully far more promising.
5 Likes
I found it beautiful.
There’s a good moral here.
Arthas finally did die in the maw when the furnaces of the jailer burn a soul down into something degraded for use. Probably the most evil thing in existence. There is no purpose more evil really than to forcefully forego one’s will (domination magic/ shaving down souls) to do good, burn a soul down into nothing but to be a weapon of darkness. Dooming one’s fate to the penalty of Sin (as Satan attempts us to do). Zovaal is Satan powerscaled for WoW.
As Varian put, referring to Arthas and his presence on the sword as “darkness”, which implies Arthas was no longer a being, but just a force.
The blue luminant light his soul was implying that all light, or life in the universe no matter how evil is something that should be considered sacred, delicate, and precious, but the jailer would corrupt it all.
So Uther threw his soul into the maw. Feels regretful that he lead to his soul’s degradation in all things except for becoming an evil force for Kingsmourne.
Arthas’ soul was unique because the Jailer would have use for a his particular half soul, which used domination magic before (as the lich king) instead of burning it whole into the maw.
Uther blames himself for hating him, and causing the Jailer to become whole since if it were not for Arthas’ half soul Anduin may not have become possessed. And Uther was consumed in Hate to the point of also being a monster at one point this xpac. (Arthas inadvertently destroyed himself by killing Uther as Uther would be waiting for him in the afterlife to throw him into the Maw out of hate… , so what’s ironic is that when Arthas says “I intend to live forever” he created his own eternal Death by killing Uther.
Arthas’ soul returned whole when frostmourne was broken. There may have been a chance. But the jailer shaved everything down in the maw completely, save for Arthas’ evil corrupted half that was left.
Uther says “I hope there is a special place in Hell waiting for you Arthas” and ironically Uther helped create that by having Arthas become the empowerer for Kingsmourne (throwing him into the maw), which in turn caused the threat of the Jailer to get SERIOUS in taking the Archon’s sigil.
Sylvanas feels regeretful she became evil like he once was, and hated him. Seeing him reduced to nothing was in a way a sign of how disgusted she is with herself to become a monster like Arthas, and perhaps enjoying seeing that to him. Arthas was a microcosm for being ashamed in how happy she would have been years earlier seeing someone reduced to utter nothing. Having pity on Arthas because his path of evil, and destruction brought him a wave of being broken down. A suffering she felt he didn’t deserve for his well-intentioned vengeance against Mal’Ganis.
No amount of hatred should mean taking absolutely everything from someone else. Uther and Sylvanas looking with pity on Arthas when he is stripped to nothing is evidence of that. Uther for becoming evil, and doing that to Arthas. And Sylvanas for becoming like Arthas. This is a very dour arc for a character, but it fits as it shows a unique take instead of generic vader redemption. It shows pity in the eyes of those who became monsters for the monster that made them monsters. And it fits the evil of the Jailer. Those who work for their fate to be good in life will end up in Hell anyway, and be turned into weapons for the Jailer.
Not saying this is the ending I would have chosen but it’s not a bad ending if you think about it thematically.
Arthas is truly a tragic character, and was wholly consumed by the Jailer unlike Anduin. Anduin had family, friends, a hero’s story.
Arthas sadly implies some people in fate are not meant to be happy, or be saved. Terenas was an indecisive shrewd king, and didn’t have the same kind of great willpower Varian had to be strong, and alert in all situations, and one with his people. Terenas was more coldly direct, and taking the easy way out in comparison (with how he is implied in the dealings with the internment camps with the orcs) than Anduin who would be strong, forthright in his dealings. It implies Terenas didn’t want to necessarily be a King, and was doing the job more as just a job, and not a passion as Varian would. This resulted in Arthas having less conviction to stay Good or strong willed. Someone with an abusive or neglectful father will confuse toxic behavior as a form of strength, unlike Anduin who had more love in his life, and more valor/ honor to follow.
Essentially Arthas was a broken injured parallel fighting Anduin, and the incompatibility shows the true ultimate tragedy of Arthas referred to as “Darkness” by Varian. Fallen Humanity vs Strong Humanity, and the compassion which made it Strong.
The morale Warcraft III’s fallen human kingdoms was that if you live too long in avoiding taking a genuine stand, and lack of will, and let things stagnate without willpower/ courage then darkness is inevitable to grow (As Terenas was not actively doing anything, staying on his Throne in Lordaeron, Medivh alludes to how his people were prisoners in their lands). (And resulting in a more dour outlook of “justice” from Arthas).
Stormwind had to be strong against the Horde since they suffered the bulk of the invasion. Lordaeron dealt with Orcs in a more low willpower/ low courage/ low valor approach (Second war, look up internment camps). Like a real world society probably would. Blizzard encourages us to be heroes, and not middle of the road.
Anduin was born in a time when war was already well accustomed with, and people were forced to be strong, and made connections and bonds strong enough to break him out of Domination, as did Varian. Arthas always felt alone in his attempts to do what had to be done to save Lordaeron because of the safe easy route Terenas had.
Arthas, and Anduin show the difference between Lordaeron and Stormwind. The Indecision of Arthas’ father shows that cowardice, and not resounding will eventually leads to people having cold bitterness, and strong will is the only way to keep things truly good, pure. Whereas we adventurers fight in the Alliance resoundingly in the WoW area.
Warcraft III’s were the perfect events to come before an MMO. It shows the folly of mankind attempting to do justice without self reflection (Lordaeron) and Stormwind (while having made mistakes has no room for BS being at the front since the beginning. And Varian/ Anduin adapt unlike Arthas who was a brute out of low willpower, and Terenas who was a broad brushstroker out of a desire to stay comfortable in conviction).
But it is also unfair as the threat that destroyed Lordaeron was insanely different, and was frog in a boiler pot (quiet corruption/ plague taking over) which is perfect for any society in a complacent position (as Lordaeron was trying to be in after the 2nd war, at the expense of having the human kingdoms come together more tightly).
It’s very nuanced but essentially, Arthas is the Anduin who shows the sad, depressing aspects of how Humanity with good intention fails. And Anduin shows the strength of how humanity comes together in times of war.
The strength of war is what Stormwind had, (adventurer/champion/ working as a raid etc.) while Lordaeron is the Alliance Kingdom that fell to the folly of harsh reality.
Varian is contrast to Terenas, whose upbringing lead to a strong, noble soul. Arthas, even if he is a good person had ego sensitivity who didn’t see enough virtue in his father, and strict Paladin peers to be filled with the right virtue.
Broad brushstroke against Stratholme
Wanted Jaina for Egotistical Reasons
Insulted Uther on multiple occaisions
Felt he was right without getting others onboard gently, as seen from egotistical sternness which Uther may have also had to a degree. The same way a dispassionate jedi order (paladins) didn’t give emotional comfort to Anakin.
Anduin has greymane, his father, others who care deeply about him and raise him with care and love.
If we take nostalgia goggles off since I assume most of us were kids looking at Arthas, then, we’d probably wonder about the base essentials of what happens when people make mistakes like this.
Anduin tries to save the universe .
Arthas with dealing with supernatural forces makes the ultimate mistakes and pays the ultimate price following his notions of “justice”, and then it all falls full circle.
Arthas’ ark was the best, subtle full circle for human beings who become a force of justice rather than ego. Who do not have a heart, and thus cannot be felt except for a bark, an order, a strike, cold, etc. Whereas Varian connects with his people.
What ultimately happens to the type of person Arthas is? Everyone wants to see it gone if good is prevailing to the point where the entire universe needs to be reset (eternity’s end)
Arthas had deep ego, with a sense of justice for egotistical reasons.
A Human who falls to the folly of Satan vs someone truly dedicated to his friends and family.
Varian, and Anduin, and all the rest who saw Arthas go subconsciously felt he was parallel to Anduin
Varian maybe, if he thought about it, if the memory still somehow noticed Arthas’ interference, …feels sorry for Arthas as he may see Arthas as what Anduin woudl have been if Varian was not loving, and caring, and more like Terenas. He may have seen Lordaeron as the ultimate bleak resting place for Human nature’s incapacity to rule wisely.
Referring to him as “darkness”.
The moral of the story though isn’t his redemption. It’s seeing sylvanas, and uther regret being consumed by so much hate they didn’t see the humanity in Arthas until it was way too late.
And that Lordaeron was a good example of how a kingdom, unlike Stormwind, dies. Where Humanity there le’s corruption sow without having the same Willpower as Arthas, and having corruption set in among those who have to pick up the pieces. Like Arthas.
Unlike Arthas, Anduin has many who will be with him. Anduin tries to rally people together instead of feeling like the one who is pouty in being the only right one in the room for vanity’s sake. As Arthas unconsciously did.
This assumes that Stormwind is the model human kingdom as it’s implied to be, and doesn’t suffer the corruption as Lordaeron did.
Ultimately in a vacuum Terenas vs Varian as Kings. (hence why it’s called King’s mourn ominously).
Terenas would be a broad brush stroke instrument without care in his leadership (implied by crisises where he sent Arthas and others, but not himself out to deal with the plague (and not quarantining his kingdom until the Scourge invasion grew too strong), and resulting in Arthas without the compassionate conviction Varian’s heroics gave to Anduin, which allowed Anduin to break domination when Arthas was tearing into his soul to ensure his control.
Since Arthas was burned by the Jailer’s forges to be his pure evil self, and never had the connection with his father, then he didn’t imagine Anduin would break free.
I hope the WoW universe resets via sepulcher. This was one of the most thematic underlying morals possible and it suits, as the most dangerous form of evil really is the subtle elusiveness of ego jading one’s sense of justice. It shows the vanquishment of the deepest kind of evil there may be, which means the universe needs a reset to make the story feel more spicy and compelling by throwing different dynamics in there.
Arthas is still perhaps wow’s best villain imo.
2 Likes
Things I liked
-Anduin restores Shalamayne to its normal state, we expected to see Varian show up somehow, this was it and was good. We have known that Anduin survives but the sword not being lost, being one of the last things Anduin has of his father… it means a lot.
And that’s it…
Things I disliked
-Saurfang though? Kinda weird, supposed they needed an orc and Thrall was busy, dude used the sword for about 2 minutes… but I can get behind this if not for… Bolvar, the dude that trained and raised Anduin almost like a son, probably took better care of him than his own daughter. I mean… I would have even killed Bolvar if necessary through the expansion just to have him show up here, after all… he was already butchered since the beggining of Shadowlands with how poor he been written, may as well end his suffering. Guess thats what happens when your company is a dumpster fire and need to cut content, do rewrites over and over or something?
Things I hated
-I never imagined I could ever come to “hate” something to the level I hate Sylvanas’ character, to the point that just her voice gets me there… Now, why does this cinematic have to focus on her? any of the other characters who meant more to the story and Arthas dare not speak? Why must it be focused on her… YET again. PLEASE, let. her. die (metaphorically or literally).
Her acknowledgement of her becoming a Lich Queen in every aspect except wearing the helmet could have been done in a “tell me more” within the game.
Edit: Better yet, save it for another cinematic as she is judged by Tyrande and all the other characters prior to her final judgement of if she dies/lives or whatever you finally decide to do with her.
-Arthas treatment
-Uther, threw his soul onto the Maw or Jaina, his friend and beloved who in his eyes ended up betraying him. Both could have said something, but instead we get Sylvanas telling Arthas practically to shoo away already because the story is about her now as we WILL be forced to accept her crimes and sins because she says she will live with the consequences. Come on…
Better yet… how about its Anduin the one that speaks, explaining what has happened, talking about how he could feel Arthas’ soul or whatever.
Decide if you wanna commit to saying Arthas was truly evil and make it so that Anduin had mental fights against him, just like Arthas had before with Ner’zhul when he put on the helmet.
Or if you wanna wash his decisions some and make it all the Jailer’s fault saying he also felt his help as he broke control, hell, maybe make it so that it was HIM who made the last push to break control since based on the whole narrative of needing a special armament to fight the Jailer it is becoming VERY clear that we would get destroyed by him. But no… Arthas is THAT strong even just his soul that he aided Anduin as a last act even if it meant he 100% ceased to exist.
All this as the last flicker of his essence fades away and with a proper farewell to what is arguably the most important character and story for Blizzard and Warcraft’s success…
So many BETTER things could have been done, the players had higher expectations from what seemed like a promise from the devs that Arthas was going to be treated well, this is NOT it… All he became was Sylvanas punching bag when she just admitted that she did the same things he had, the hipocrecy…
8 Likes
They probably gave Sylvanas sharp words to reassure fans that she hasn’t switched back to full Ranger General mode. A teary guilt-driven monologue would have been completely out of character. So that’s “good”.
Besides that… let’s say it’s about time this story comes to an end.
2 Likes